State School VS Private for Primary ?

[RishMum]

Hello Mums,

My DD just turned 2.5 years old and we live in Chadwell Heath Area (RM8). Our area is not known to have the best schools historically. There are one or two Ofsted Outstanding Schools but other schools that children around go to are just Good etc. Nor does this area have any great private / independent schools. We are really confused about which route to go. I am happy to consider relocation if required to South east (Bromley etc) or Harrow because I hear the areas are known to have some of the best schools. Though we own the current house and live in a nice community so moving would be a big ask, but we are ready to do it if we have to for schools.

I am really confused about where to start? Any mums in the locality who can recommend any good private / prep schools for me to visit. Any outstanding state schools in the area that anyone can recommend. Pros and Cons about State vs Private schools?

Sorry for an unclear post but I just dont know where to start! And I am worried I am probably late with starting my research.

Thanks in advance!
R

Anyone?!

I am not in your area so cannot comment on the specific schools but don't look and rely on OFSTED. The majority of outstanding schools (at least all near me) have not been inspected for around 10 years. So much changes in that time. Good ones are inspected more often but it is all about what school is a fit for your child.

Go see the schools, get a feel for them and go see the privates too. That allows you to compare and see whether they are truly better and if they are, if they are worth the cost. When viewing, look at the school as a whole, not just the early years. Hopefully you can view while school is on so you can see the children and how they are. When viewing privates, there are other factors to consider such as whether you are committing to private until they are 18 or just primary. Do you want single sex or co-ed?

FWIW we opted for the prep route for DD who has just started in reception. She is very academic and while we loved our local state, we did not feel it would be able to offer her the same stimulation when she is in a class of 30 with such a range of abilities. We are only 3 weeks in but very happy with our choice so far - she has been stimulated from the first week and has access to a range of additional activities in her school day taught by specialist staff.

You need to visit the schools, chat to as many parents as you can, go on FB and get opinions, and then consider what your own child is like and whether the local schools will be appropriate.

In my view Outstanding at Ofsted doesn't mean much; my DD's primary school was last assessed properly in 2011 and a lot changes in a decade

Take a close look at the school's progress measures for its kids. Also find out how it manages SEN - even the best school can have a class heavily troubled by underfunding for SEN, if it is poorly funded and there is a shortage of 1:1 support for SEN in class. Find out about the ethos of the school. If your child is very bright indeed, what will the school do to stretch your child, if anything?

My advice is, if you can afford private, go private. The smaller class sizes are so beneficial at this age and enable your child to go at their own pace. You are then much more likely to get your child into a good secondary, which is what really counts.

If you are thinking of moving do NOT just think short term (primary). Have secondary schools in your sights too. What schools do your primary schools tend to send children onwards to? What secondary schools are you in catchment for (bearing in mind sometimes catchments change)? Sending your child to a private secondary school a long way away, with no one they know, or needing to move again in Y5 in order to be in catchment for application in Y6, would be unfortunate if you can situate yourself perfectly now. Equally moving away to find a good primary may be silly if you are in the catchment of an excellent secondary school already.

Thank you so much @Usernamehell and @PennyWus. This really helps. There are not many (rather any that come up in online search) private / prep schools in my area or close by. Definitely not the best secondary schools. Some of the brighter children in the locality travel 1-1.5 hours on coach to Colchester Grammar etc. So maybe moving now would not be such a bad choice.

Any opinions on areas I can move to - considering long term. Prep / private for primary and good secondary. I am definitely academically inclined and I think my daughter would be too. Not to say I wouldnt want her to explore her potential in other areas. As I do feel she has a definite interest in the arts side (for now anyways). So definitely a school with good balance and space for her to explore and grow would be my choice. And reading both your messages, prep seems like the way to go. Any opinions on areas to consider would be amazing. And thanks so much for the detailed response. I truly appreciate it, being a first time poster on MN. :)

You mentioned you live in a nice community - where do those with children send them to school? What are their opinions of the schools? Does your child go to nursery? If so, ask them where children often go to for school? Definitely explore all the options in your area before moving.

With regards to moving - what areas suit you and your partner for work? Look at those and see what education is available. You mentioned Harrow - there is certainly a wealth of good state and independents in NW London and you are spoilt for choice although if going down the state route, be prepared for very high property prices to be close enough to get a place. Most preps in the area also have a 4+ assessment process (nothing overwhelming if your child is a fit for the school though) so you would want to find out about it.

If you have just one child and are not tied to London, moving further can often mean cheaper school fees and property prices so something to consider?

I just want to mention that whilst PennyWus and I seem to have a similar opinion on private for primary, I do feel we are in the minority on MN. From what I have seen, the majority feel private primary is a waste of money and should save to spend it on senior school. There isn't one correct answer, just what fits for your child.

@Usernamehell all the children in our community go to the 4-5 state primaries in the area. Because ours is an Indian heavy community (myself included), quite a few children go to a Hindu faith school, which seems like a really good school with good results. However, I am not entirely comfortable with the idea of sending my daughter to a school where its 99.9% Indian children. Because I feel she will be very limited in her outlook later in life and it just defies the point of being in a global city.

Sending children to private does not seem to be on the radar of parents around at all - which might be due to the financial implications or the fact that there are actually none in the area. I just checked the Barking and Dagenham council website and there is only 1 small independent faith school listed under the private schools tab. Also because ours is a fairly new community with all the houses newly built around 5-7 years ago, everyone has moved in just few years ago and so moving again for schools is definitely not on minds of any of the people around.

My daughter does go to a very good nursery which is a bit further away from home and I have made an appointment with the staff next week to discuss the schools and understand where other children from her nursery go to. Reason I had mentioned NW and SE areas is because I know they have good schools and we also have some friends in both the areas so would not a whole start from scratch as far as social life is concerned. Though I understand what you mean about the premium on property prices in the catchment area.

Moving out of London is not much of an option for us as both our works are in central london and will be, given our professions. I will do all the research about schools in the locality and try and visit some when I am allowed to and see what I feel. Also, noted about the majority of MN opinion on primary. And worth mentioning that we are planning on a DC2 at some point in the near future, so affordability for 2 children in private is something I would need to think about I guess.

I wonder if the private schools are not on the radar with many parents because they are happy with what is on offer? I think many first time parents (quite rightly) get very worried about finding THE BEST school for their child. However in my experience of being way down the line with my much older large family, what children really need is a happy childhood. Don’t confuse the two. Walking to a good-enough state primary with friends in your local community can be a really wonderful way to spend your childhood.

Faith schools have their positives and negatives. One major positive I have noticed (with Jewish and Hindu schools in NW London in particular) is that the majority of parents are like-minded, prioritise education and there is often little disruption as a result. I certainly wouldnt be confident extrapolating this observation to all areas of the country or all faiths but it is the case in this particular area. The downside is of course, less mixing with everyone from all backgrounds but it could be argued that children in a private school are also not exposed to to this, just in a different way.

It is of course possible to ensure they do meet people from other backgrounds outside of school and I am making a big effort to ensure she does a wide range of extra curricular activities which will allow her to meet different people

Definitely speak to people and see - both your local community and friends in the areas you have mentioned. Get their opinions and why they have made the choices they did and it will hopefully help you

I certainly wouldn’t move to Harrow if you’re not keen on an education which is predominately Indian. Many of the state and private schools are about 90% Indian. I would have a look at Barnet for good but slightly more diverse schools

If you work in London, you could consider Buckinghamshire. There are grammar schools and fast trains into London. Many good primary schools and outstanding ones!
Plenty of parents who are supportive of education.

I would also strongly suggest Ofsted Good is good! Outstanding isn’t necessarily much better. It’s often very marginal. A Good school is more than acceptable.

Thank you all for all the valuable and varied insights. Definitely helping me think of all the aspects I need to consider. I have to admit it's all very daunting and stressful. I am hoping I am not too late in starting my research. I went for open day of one of the prep schools half an hour away just to get a flavor of what it's like, and I was definitely impressed. I have not been to any of the state schools around yet but I will as the open days come up.

With private schools though I know I will be ending up spending extra for breakfast and after school clubs. Can anyone give me an idea of what are approximate costs I am looking at annually if I do go the prep / private way?

@RishMum

Thank you all for all the valuable and varied insights. Definitely helping me think of all the aspects I need to consider. I have to admit it's all very daunting and stressful. I am hoping I am not too late in starting my research. I went for open day of one of the prep schools half an hour away just to get a flavor of what it's like, and I was definitely impressed. I have not been to any of the state schools around yet but I will as the open days come up.

With private schools though I know I will be ending up spending extra for breakfast and after school clubs. Can anyone give me an idea of what are approximate costs I am looking at annually if I do go the prep / private way?

You’ll probably be doing that with state schools too?

I teach at a prep. From memories the fees are approx £12k (fairly cheap, expect more in london). Breakfast club is about £5, after school about £10 including tea. Trips probably £159-200 per year in the lower years, more like £5-700 in the upper school (residentials). Uniform way more expensive than state, though we do have second hand sales.

Outer London very dependent on the school. Privates that go to 18 tend to have the highest fees, preps generally cheaper but those with more facilities have higher fees. For us, breakfast club is £7 if I remember right and afterschool is split into 2 - so varies between £8 and £16 depending on how late you collect. Have not yet reached the trip stage but figures from PP are what I expect.

Uniform eye wateringly expensive for poor quality clothes - each girls' dress upwards of £40! Would be budgeting minimum £12k for fees + additional costs and allowing for fees to rise above inflation each year

Just to note - most of our local states did not have open days, and those that did had nothing advertised on their websites. We had to contact them to say we were interested and they either booked us a tour with the head or informed us of the next group tours happening to register onto. Worth getting in touch soon as they will be conducting tours this term for those applying for 2022 start which you can join onto. (Very grateful I did all this 1 and 2 years before I needed to as COVID hit so would not have seen a single school in person if had waited until year before we started)

My DDs old prep school fees are now £3990 for YR-2 and Y3-8 it’s £5990 per term. £12,000 pa wouldn’t get you a high class prep with top school destinations where I live - and it’s not London.

A slightly different view point. My DS is now nearly 8 and in Year 3 at a good state school. We put his name down at the private prep at a similar age to yours, but then backtracked to send him to the state school.

Why? Our area in the North West is well regarded for having excellent state schools. Ours is a 'good', but TBH the Outstanding one around the corner (we're just out of catchment for) hasn't been Ofsted-ed for nearly 10 years. It ticks all the official boxes, but have since found out the head has a bad reputation, and during Covid closures had to be overruled multiple times by the governors. So, an Ofsted report is not the be all and end all.

The prep school was lovely, small class sizes, nice facilities and prepped them heavily in year 4-5 for 11+. Still, I hear from friends that those kids are also seeing a tutor during year 5 anyway.

We live in a full grammar school area, so have a mix of grammar schools (in priority catchment for two) and mediocre state schools. I took a bit of advice from a friend with older kids who told me:

• Just because you want grammar for your child, it doesn't mean it's right for them
• A bright child has a good chance of passing if they have a tutor for a year in Year 5 and has parental input throughout primary (note, this may not be the case in some areas)
• Save your money by going state, then use it for secondary if you need it.

We ended up deciding that there was no point sending him to a prep and be heavily tutored for 11+ if that wasn't right for him. If a year with a tutor wasn't enough, then he shouldn't be going there anyway.

We have been very happy with our state school. My son is particularly good at maths, and the school have always offered additional challenges and differentiated work. He also mixes with a broad range of children, which I personally think he needs to do to help him in the real world when he's older. Most importantly he is happy. I said to my DH we could always move him at 7 if we weren't happy with the school, but we really have been. I personally couldn't ask for more, and we've saved ourselves a fortune (We are two professionals, but certainly not wealthy and with no family money).

So in summary, I personally wouldn't be in a rush to move area at this stage. Have a look at state schools in your area (use the gov website 'compare schools') and see how they perform. You can also call the local authority to get a good idea of realistically which schools you will/won't get into in a couple of years. Think ahead to secondary now and understand what system you are in, what your options are likely to be in the future.

I think once your child reaches 6-7, you will have much better idea what type of secondary school would suit them. For us, we are aiming for the grammar with independent options as a back up.

Aside from education, we love our period house and have nearly paid off the mortgage. We 'could' move to another local area to get near an excellent state school, but we'd be adding £200k on the mortgage easily for not as nice a house! Also, think carefully about moving now for a 'good secondary'. I know a part of our borough a load of parents were specifically moving to for a 'Outstanding' secondary with a tiny catchment (under 1 mile). This has now gone downhill, so glad I didn't do similar!

results
secondary options.

Wow! I wrote a load! Guess that's what happens with a coffee first thing on a Sunday morning! Good luck!

Not sure what advice you are looking for exactly but SE London has a lot of great options for private and state schools.

The state vs private benefits come down to the individual schools you are comparing more than the sector and your child’s needs as well as your finances.

If you’d like recommendations about where you could relocate to that has outstanding state options as well as private prep and secondary schools it would be helpful to know your budget and then it would be easier to make some suggestions.

Move out a bit further, say to Brentwood and you'll have loads of choice. Upminster also has great schools.

Chelmsford has super selective grammars.

You do have grammars your way too, like Ilford County and Woodford County. Private secondaries like Forest and Bancroft.

London schools are generally very good indeed, even state schools.

I really would lose the focus on outstanding schools and if you want a state school go and see it. There are outstanding schools that are amazing, there are others that are very good at ticking the boxes required for ofsted with little regard for what all of their pupils actually need. Plus many were inspected years ago under a different framework. There are plenty of amazing ‘good’ schools out there that really care and do the absolute best for their pupils and sometimes that doesn’t involve being complete in line with the ofsted agenda.

Whatever you decide go and look at schools, state and private and choose the one you think will suit your child best and they will be happiest at.

@yoshiblue thank you sooo much for a detailed response and apologies for a late reply. I really appreciate it. I have started contacting local schools and will start visiting as soon as I get appointments.

@LondonGirl83 - thanks a lot. Yes I guess, I would like some suggestions about areas. Again SE and NW hold particular interest for reasons previously mentioned. I know Kingston and Sutton are apparently good options too but probably expensive. TBH - I do not have a budget right now as I dont know if we would be able to buy another property in the next year. Our fall back option was to rent for a year or so until we find a property and the whole buying process goes through. We are not convinced on selling our current one yet and would like to retain it as an investment potentially. So for now, good schools which will sort us for primary and secondary is the aim.

@ILookAtTheFloor - yes woodford does seem to have some good schools. We actually did visit the Woodford Green Prep School last week and quite liked it, but its still not a daily commute distance and will mean having to move. Hence, the conclusion that if I have to move, might as well move in a location which ticks all the boxes futuristically, if that makes sense?

@Italiandreams thank you. that does seem like a general consensus that outstanding does not necessarily mean its the right one.

Thank you very much all. One question - how do I find out exact catchment and priority catchment areas etc for schools. I tried govt website but couldnt find anything concrete. I assume there will be maps somewhere that show the exact areas that fall in particular school's catchment?

Also, FWIW we had our DD's 2 year review at the nursery and the feedback was (from what we gathered) that she is pretty bright and is already capable of carrying herself and mingling with the preschool children. Actually my daughter refuses to nap at the nursery and so during that time they take her to the preschool area while other children in her toddler room nap. Her manager mentioned potentially moving her to preschool earlier than the 3 year mark because she thinks she is ready and needs more challenges.

Reason I put this out there is - talking to some friends, what I gathered was that if both of us are going to be busy with our work during office hours which we are, have always been due to the nature of our professions - privates take care of the extra curricular activities and will hone those skills when they notice her interest ie drama, music, arts etc. With states, I believe we will need to enroll her in the extra afterschool or weekend classes for all these things?

Is this correct? Apologies if I am being confused and asking obvious / stupid questions. This whole school saga is a bit stressful.

Thanks everyone for all your inputs. Its extremely helpful!

I don't know your area. Look at league tables (although due to covid they are out of date slightly) and yes do look at Ofsted -that's what it is there for. Ask around, ask local teachers on FB groups. (Good teachers always know) and visit.

Near me 2 outstanding, 3 good, one RI, one failing

I didn't even consider the bottom two. 2 outstanding -mine would have got into it as had EHCP. One is feeder for outstanding secondary one is feeder for RI secondary -I picked the first.

Private isn't always better. But private isn't worse either. I've know some private school fail and nuture difficult children and some help them thrive.

FB your local group and ask.

I'm not in that area but I have had children in an outstanding school, good school and special measures. The worse school by far was the outstanding absolutely atrocious bulldog that wasn't dealt with it was just brushed under the carpet and when inspectors came parents with children who were or had been bullied were kept away from school.

I moved my child to a school that was in special measures at the time of enrolment. However this is now a good school. I cannot fault it one bit my daughter has thrived and I would never send my child to school just because it is "outstanding".

I think you'll find the schools in special measures or that are rated good and constantly working to improve and this has suited our family perfectly. I will also add that my child has excelled academically a the special measures school.

It is definitely worth looking at the date on outstanding vs Good Ofsteds.

Outstanding schools are rarely if ever inspected. This not only means that the schools have changed, but also the Ofsted criteria for Outstanding have changed.

Many schools with old 'Outstanding' labels acquired them when the benchmark for Outstanding was lower (almost identical to the current criteria for Good, in fact), and would only have got Good if inspected under the current framework.

I would certainly consider both Outstanding and Good schools to be equally worth looking into - a school with a recent 'Good' is almost certainly as good today as a school rated Outstanding under the old framework was when it was inspected, and which is actually the best school for your child is not necessarily reflected in the ratings

Talk to parents of pupils at the school. Ofsted means nothing. Please do not think that if a school is outstanding it will be good for your child.