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Primary education

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Has anyone's child ever been put forward a year for Maths?

47 replies

TrojaninTroy · 17/09/2021 12:06

Back story: I am an ex-primary school teacher and have taught all the year groups. I have posted before regarding DS's well above average mathematical ability and his independent school's failure to challenge him. He has strong verbal skills too, and is exceeding expectations in all areas. For three years now, we have been asking school to provide more challenge to him in maths. School initially denied that DS wasn't being challenged even though they could not give any examples as to how. We were on the brink of changing schools, but pulled back because he is otherwise in a lovely year group with several strong friendships, because of the uncertainty surrounding Covid, and because of the lack of availability of state school places near to us anyway.

We have so far had two meetings with the Head, and have a further 'catch-up' meeting scheduled. We have virtually begged for our son to be challenged more, and the Head fervently replied that challenge was what they were all about. School has now redeveloped its maths curriculum, which is based on White Rose, but is part bespoke, this latter bit appearing to consist of intermittent revision weeks 'to help put the learning into the children's long term memory', notwithstanding the spiral nature of the maths curriculum in England anyway.

Now that he is in Year 3, DS brings home his school maths book to do his homework in. The work he has done is at the same level as that which he was doing in Year 2, which was already too easy. He is just treading water here.

To be fair, his teacher has provided a 'challenge' sheet just for him, although it is unrelated to the strand of maths being taught. It is an open-ended problem which asks 'Which of these numbers can you combine to make 100?' and so could run for weeks. Meanwhile, the bulk of his lesson is taken up with the usual introduction and main activity, which appears to be differentiated for the class to two different levels as has been the case ever since he started school.

It appears to be school's unwritten policy only to differentiate maths work to two levels of ability all the way up to Year 6. Despite our conversations with the Head, I don't see them shifting on this. One could argue that as there are only 20 children in the class and it is two-form entry, surely in their planning the two teachers have capacity to consider the actual cohort in question and differentiate according to actual need rather than to Year 3 expectations (especially as a TA supports in class), but No. Or rather, 'Yes we do, but in reality No we do not'. At every stage, school have talked the talk but they have not walked the walk. They are outstanding at this, beyond all expectations.

If we were to start again, I don't think we would have sent DS to this school and he might well have been better served going to a nearby State school. But we really don't want to move DS away from a school where he is so well settled, so are now wondering whether to push for DS to be put into Year 4, just for maths lessons, remaining with his Year 3 class the rest of the time. Having looked at the maths curriculum, I can see that this would provide a far better 'biting point' for him. I think school are more likely to agree to this rather than to a wider in-class differentiation. My one reservation would be that, if he went forward a year for maths, what would happen when he reached Year 6? Has anyone else's child ever gone forward, and how did it ultimately work through?

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ClaudiaAndTheCauldron · 17/09/2021 12:33

Hi OP. Both my children were in a one form entry state school. Like you are asking, the teacher moved them up to the year above for maths. When they got to Year 6 I think all the children that were moved up sat on one table and did differentiated work to the rest after the regular intro with the class. It may be a good solution for your son if he is otherwise happy at the school.

HSHorror · 17/09/2021 12:49

So he can do mixed fractions adding etc?
I would just not stress about it. Our state school has the maths and the extension work (challenge). But it is just harder work on the same topic not next year's work.
The work does naturally get harder in y4 anyway. You could watch the y4 white rose maths videos at home if you wanted to or do next year's maths with cgp books.
Our school has moved kids up for one subject pre covid.
Is he doing 11+?
If je is one of the eldest the level of the other kids might catch up.
Depending on size of state school there could be more or less competition.

BrieAndChilli · 17/09/2021 13:01

my children went to a state primary school, right from the beginning they were put in groups according to ability and that meant some kids were in groups with other aged children. for example in reception DS was put in a group for maths with year 2 children (they did say that he could have been put in a higher group but socially that wouldn't have been suitable so on balance they chose the year 2 grouping for him) they do similar for literacy as well.
When he got to year 6 I know him and a couple of others were given higher ability work/extension work to stop them being bored.

je4852 · 17/09/2021 13:06

Have a look at the UK Maths Trust site for information on challenging more able pupils.

LetItGoToRuin · 17/09/2021 14:56

There have been quite a few similar threads over the years, particularly in the Gifted and Talented section.

It seems it’s rare these days for a child to move to the year above, either for everything or just for one subject. A truly gifted child won’t be challenged by moving a single year ahead anyway, so it wouldn’t be much help, and in a smaller primary where timetables are flexible, the maths lessons may be out of sync and it wouldn’t work for practical reasons.

My DD is now in Y6 (state school, one form entry), and to be honest I’ve largely given up on expecting her to be challenged at school. Since Covid, we’ve just been happy that she’s been in school and enjoying herself, and in the past few months she’s been preparing (at home) for the 11 plus, so the details of what she’s been doing in school didn’t seem to matter so much.

Looking back, in YR it was fine because the experienced teacher was able to challenge them individually. In Y1 DD spent a lot of time helping others when she’d finished her work, and I had a few catch-ups with the teacher about it because it was a bit awkward for DD, socially. There was the occasional challenge sheet and lots of gushing from the teachers at parents’ evening, but not a lot of action. In Y2 it was more straightforward because it was another teacher that enjoyed stretching the brighter ones. Every year is different, every teacher is different.

After Y2, we just made sure DD was stimulated outside school, learning a foreign language and a musical instrument, as well as spotting fun learning opportunities to follow her interests (historical visits, programming, online maths). Although she has always been exceeding across the board, she is most able in the language/humanities area, and I think it’s easier to provide adequate differentiation there without specific teaching/direction. The parents of one or two children that are really able in maths have largely given up trying to get sufficient differentiation, and choose to extend at home.

Obviously that’s at a state school, but the story is probably not much different in private schools, judging from previous threads.

Lockdowndramaqueen · 17/09/2021 14:57

Wildmaths is good for open ended problem solving g

SweetBabyCheeses99 · 17/09/2021 16:14

IME if your child isn’t being challenged at an independent primary school then they definitely won’t be at a state school! Perhaps it seems like there is a greater differentiation of ability, but that’s because there’ll be children who are illiterate. The goal of primary state education is to try to get all children to the same level before they leave; it’s definitely not to provide opportunities to stretch the gifted students. There are lots of ways you could challenge your child - learning an instrument, new sport, language etc.

Yellowmellow2 · 17/09/2021 18:41

@SweetBabyCheeses99

IME if your child isn’t being challenged at an independent primary school then they definitely won’t be at a state school! Perhaps it seems like there is a greater differentiation of ability, but that’s because there’ll be children who are illiterate. The goal of primary state education is to try to get all children to the same level before they leave; it’s definitely not to provide opportunities to stretch the gifted students. There are lots of ways you could challenge your child - learning an instrument, new sport, language etc.
I completely disagree. I teach at a state primary school and we have some extreme bright children who are certainly challenged in maths. We use the maths mastery approach where children are challenged to go deeper with their understanding (not just using bigger numbers!). They problem solve, explain and investigate conjecture, amongst other things. It is sometimes the very brightest ones who find it hard to explain mathematical concepts as they ‘just know it’ which is often where the challenge comes from.

It is certainly not the case that state schools just get children to the same level before they leave! I actually find that comment very naive…

HeAteItWithASpoon · 17/09/2021 18:48

There seems very little point pushing forward with doing maths early unless he is an absolute maths wizz who knows he wants to do pure maths at uni and is happy to start uni early. I went to a local grammar school with a head that was keen on getting as many as possible to do their maths early as it looked good for the school. I did my maths GCSE in year 9 and then statistics and further maths GCSE’s in year 10. I got A*s in all 3 but then didn’t start A levels until year 12. Myself and the 2 others who had done them early simply couldn’t cope with the jump to A level having not done any maths for a year. I did economics instead and I’ve always felt a bit hard done by as maths was by far my best subject.

Rosesareyellow · 17/09/2021 19:16

Look up maths mastery - simply giving children work that is meant for the year above in order to challenge them is not considered good practice, quite the contrary. Challenge should come from applying understanding that they have to a vast variety of reasoning and problem solving activities. Maybe ask the school about that. You’re not going to get anywhere demanding he move up a year for maths lessons, most schools will not agree to this as it’s not considered good practice.

Rosesareyellow · 17/09/2021 19:22

The goal of primary state education is to try to get all children to the same level before they leave; it’s definitely not to provide opportunities to stretch the gifted students.

Bullsh*t of the highest calibre.

KeyboardWorriers · 17/09/2021 19:23

How frustrating. My children have had differentiated work throughout at primary. Admittedly my son still gets fed up that the maths is "too easy". But I think it is pitched right for the rest of the most able children. I use a tutor so he gets the chance to spend an hour a week really exploring maths with her.

KeyboardWorriers · 17/09/2021 19:26

The goal of primary state education is to try to get all children to the same level before they leave; it’s definitely not to provide opportunities to stretch the gifted students.

I am afraid there is some truth in this. Whilst there is differentiation of work, my experience has been that most teachers look annoyed or frustrated when I say that my son doesn't feel stretched enough. There's definitely a sense that stretching him is a pretty low priority for them. Hence why we use tutors and other opportunities too. But I am lucky that I can pay for this.

KeyboardWorriers · 17/09/2021 19:27

And that was my experience at school too. I never really felt stretched at all until I got to university.

Plantstrees · 17/09/2021 19:41

My dd was moved up in her independent prep school (for all subjects not just maths). The problem was that she missed a few things in the maths syllabus that were not obvious. Ultimately it didn't hold her back but we only discovered that she hadn't covered certain fairly obscure but fundamental topics when she got to Common Entrance revision. For example, she couldn't put 0.1, .01 .00001 etc in the right order whilst she could do fairly complex algebra. It was easily sorted but just take care to ensure that all the topics that are usually scheduled in the missing year are covered.

TrojaninTroy · 17/09/2021 20:04

Many thanks for all the replies. My belief is that, despite all the promises of enrichment, opportunities for problem-solving etc which I know is believed to be good practice, for a good 80% of the lesson DS is wasting his time in maths. We will monitor the situation (again) until half term, and them most likely push them to do something more.

OP posts:
cansu · 17/09/2021 20:09

Here is an idea - why not let your child be good at maths and focus your attention on what he is weaker in? Could he spend some of his extra time working on something he needs to develop in?

If you put him in the year above, what will happen in Y6?

Maybe you should try and chill out a bit?

Yellowmellow2 · 17/09/2021 20:18

@Plantstrees

My dd was moved up in her independent prep school (for all subjects not just maths). The problem was that she missed a few things in the maths syllabus that were not obvious. Ultimately it didn't hold her back but we only discovered that she hadn't covered certain fairly obscure but fundamental topics when she got to Common Entrance revision. For example, she couldn't put 0.1, .01 .00001 etc in the right order whilst she could do fairly complex algebra. It was easily sorted but just take care to ensure that all the topics that are usually scheduled in the missing year are covered.
This is very interesting and highlights the importance of sequential learning in maths and deepening understanding. If a child struggles to order decimals then it shows they don’t have a solid understanding of place value and the number system. It is so important to develop number sense and jumping ahead, as you’ve highlighted, can ultimately cause the child to come unstuck further down the line. You can teach children a formula, or how to do something, but it’s the understanding and application that’s the real learning.
KeyboardWorriers · 17/09/2021 20:24

@@cansu I think you are missing the fact that very able children often really want to be stretched. I know in my case and my son's case the drive to be stretched came from the child not the parent. I have another son who is just as able but quite happy to coast and spend his spare energy finding ways to cause mischief.

Mintjulia · 17/09/2021 20:25

Policy seems to be to keep children back regardless of how bright your child is.

My ds was at primary with an extremely maths-gifted girl. The school refused to provide anything extra, so her mum let her do maths homework with her equally maths-bright elder sister.

Then she took her maths gcse in year 6 and got an A*. Primary head teacher was still insisting it was inappropriate, Grin

Rosesareyellow · 17/09/2021 20:29

for a good 80% of the lesson DS is wasting his time in maths.

How so?

RedskyThisNight · 17/09/2021 20:30

My nephew was moved up a year for maths in his private school. Unfortunately when he got to the top year in the school they didn't have anywhere to move him, so he just repeated the year again. My DB and SIL said if they'd realised this would happen, they wouldn't have pushed for him to be moved.

toptomatoes · 17/09/2021 20:33

Our primary was OK at differentiating in the middle years (3, 4 ish) by giving higher level work once they’d mastered the topic, but then ran out of higher level stuff in years 5 and 6 as they had already used it. Year 6 in particular was quite frustrating.

Rosesareyellow · 17/09/2021 20:37

There is a real emphasis now on ‘understanding’ maths, rather than ‘doing’ maths. I’m not saying that you’re wrong about your DS not being challenged sufficiently, but your insistence that he should be in an older class for maths does suggest you have little understanding of how the teaching of maths has developed since you were in school yourself. He might say he finds it ‘easy’, but more often than not children who are good at calculating and who are then told they are good at maths (being a good mathematician is a whole different thing) can be over confident in their own abilities and there is a lot of bravado going on. They supposedly find everything ‘easy’ - they’re not keen on admitting otherwise.

Whstdoyouthink · 17/09/2021 20:41

You could also challenge him