Converting to Catholicism

[smplkd]

Hi all,

Wondering if you could help.

I'm Catholic, and my wife is CoE. We got our first daughter christened in a CoE Church when she was born (she's 4 in September).

We recently moved area, and I'd like my daughter to go to the local Catholic School (which I should have thought about before we get her Christened in a CoE church, but minor family politics...)

We've started attending the local Catholic Church, and I'm going to ask them details around getting my daughter baptised. But was wondering if there was anything I needed to do around conversion? Or whether or not I even need to get her baptised?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

@Mischance

I can live with the idea of spending a shed load of money on getting rid of religion based schools. One-off spend and we suddenly find ourselves in the 21st century with an equitable system. France outlawed these divisive schools years ago - we can do the same.

Religion is a matter for the home and not for state-funded indoctrination, which is fundamentally wrong.

People like the OP are looking at conversion as a way of getting a child into school - how can this possibly be right? It has nothing to do with faith. Hypocrisy of the highest order.

Some time ago I calculated the cost, assuming it is just RC schools that close. That would create a need for around 25,000 new schools. The total cost would probably be north of £600 billion. For perspective, the government's total spending is currently a little under £800 billion. Spending on schools is a little over £50 billion.

You may be able to live with the idea of spending that much money, but I strongly suspect you would find that the electorate wouldn't be willing to pay.

And I note that the OP isn't talking about converting himself to get his child into school. He is already Catholic. So no, I don't think he is being in any way hypocritical.

You cannot put a price on freedom.

Well you've come to it quite late as you will be applying soon. It depends on how oversubscribed the school is. As PP say you can still hope for a non faith place. Try prayer ! (Sorry I actually meant that but it sounds flippant).

Catholic baptism isn't an option but it's good she is already baptised. I'd keep going to church regularly, speak to the priest, mention that you've moved area
ask about getting involved in the community. Could you read at mass? Or hand round the collection? Or help with the SVP? I wouldn't mention your dd and getting into the school to him now.

Not being too cynical here but if you are involved in the community it would be useful to get the priest onside for a recommendation if it ends up at appeal. At which point you can explain that family pressure meant you got a CofE Baptism but that you've been raising her Catholic and you want her in the school to support that.

One thing you could ask him is what happens about first Holy communion if she isn't baptised Catholic.

Hopefully he will be disposed to help in an appeal based on your regular attendance and being genuinely involved.

What are secondary options where you are? It's worth thinking longer term if you also want a shot at secondary Catholic schools.

I think anything that brings you back to church and more in touch with your faith is a good thing. People scoff here but at the end of the day you couldn't do regular church attendance just to get into school without faith. You must be getting something out of mass.

I love my dcs Catholic school. They do claas mass in school time, FHC with their whole class is a great time in their lives, we have lovely Easter and Christmas events, we have school masses that parents can attend (kids are so cute reading budding prayers and saying hail Mary etc,), Ash Wednesday and lent is a real thing in the school, we have a great community at mass and in school. Also, now I'm looking at secondary I have some great options outside of grammar and other people I know are looking at private or dreading the alternative if their dc fail 11 plus because they can't or won't look at the Catholic schools.

The best thing has been putting me back in touch with my faith. Your dd will have to make up her own mind one day but you have an opportunity to deal with your own beliefs now.

I assume this school is over-subscribed.

Baptism in c of e counts for catholic faith too. So if you attend the church and say you're a mixed family and want her to do her first holy communion then she is effectively of the catholic faith. That's what they told us at out pre marriage inter faith preparation course anyway.

@frogswimming

Baptism in c of e counts for catholic faith too. So if you attend the church and say you're a mixed family and want her to do her first holy communion then she is effectively of the catholic faith. That's what they told us at out pre marriage inter faith preparation course anyway.

That isn't always true for school admissions.

I hope this isn’t off topic, but do Catholic churches take a register etc at Mass in the UK? How do people prove they have been going every week? I used to go to mass when I was a kid in Dublin and I don’t see how the priest could have possibly known who was there every week/ session.

It’s as prh47bridge says.

Much depends on the wording of the school’s admissions criteria. For some schools, the lack of Catholic baptism and starting to attend mass at the age of nearly 4 would disqualify you from being considered for the admissions category for practising Catholics (although it wouldn’t disqualify you from being considered under other categories) but at other schools it wouldn’t.

And yes. Some churches have a register for families to sign as they attend every week.

@P0gM0Th0in

I hope this isn’t off topic, but do Catholic churches take a register etc at Mass in the UK? How do people prove they have been going every week? I used to go to mass when I was a kid in Dublin and I don’t see how the priest could have possibly known who was there every week/ session.

My point exactly, I was in church in the 8:30 mass but my son was unknown to the gossipy busy bodies who ran the kids session during mass and volunteered in the school.

DS got a place, but I had to complain to my priest about what was happening and he intervened. I am not sure if that would have worked if I had been unknown to him.

I mean DS didn’t attend the children session because that took place on the 11 am mass and by then I was at work.

@P0gM0Th0in

I hope this isn’t off topic, but do Catholic churches take a register etc at Mass in the UK? How do people prove they have been going every week? I used to go to mass when I was a kid in Dublin and I don’t see how the priest could have possibly known who was there every week/ session.

Many UK Catholic congregations tend to be way smaller than the packed churches of Ireland in the past, more likely to have tea/coffee afterwards, and I don’t think I ever encountered a separate kids’ session at an Irish Mass.

Also, if part of the point of Mass attendance is getting your child a school place, people tend to make themselves known. None of that skulking in the porch at twelve Mass with a hangover and not going up for Communion because your legs weren’t the best.

Tbf to the op, he never said that the school was an excellent, oversubscribed school he just thought that a catholic education would be a good thing. In my area the catholic schools are the worst performers so not always the case of hordes of pseudo-believers beating a path to the door.

Catholic baptism isn't an option but it's good she is already baptised. I'd keep going to church regularly, speak to the priest, mention that you've moved area ask about getting involved in the community. Could you read at mass? Or hand round the collection? Or help with the SVP?

None of this would make any difference to school admission. As already mentioned, it is dependent on what is written in the admissions policy. The policy should give a clear definition of what constitutes a practising Catholic. This usually includes a Catholic baptism certificate (and no, a C of E one does not count as Catholic) plus regular attendance at Mass over a period of time. The priest must use the definition in the policy to say yes or no to Catholic practice. There’s no room for subjectivity such as saying they read at Mass so it doesn’t matter if the child isn’t baptised Catholic. It has to be objective for parity and in order for the appeals process to be effective.

Cheers guys! I’m a child free atheist now so it will probably never affect my life, but it’s something I always wondered about reading these threads. Good luck with the school place!

Without reading the whole thread because the same arguments tend to arise with faith schools.

I personally know of families who have had their child baptised twice so they could go to a faith school. I think they may have kept the knowledge to themselves when asking for the second baptism. But there are certainly no checks done, there is no national database of chosen faiths where such checks can be made.

Personally, as you have already became part of this church community, I would speak to the priest and explain that you attended a CoE church in your old area but now you have moved, you are happier within the Catholic Church and after experiencing both, you would like your daughter to be brought up within the Catholic faith. He may question your reasons, so make sure you have your answers and not just because of school, although you can say you would like her school to have the same beliefs as yourselves.

@prh47bridge Would it not be possible (and much cheaper) to simply ban religious discrimination as a criteria for admissions?
I know in Belgium most schools are Catholic, but religion is not a factor in admissions (used to be mainly first come, first serve, but now more distance/siblings) and they have recently done this in Ireland, though only for Catholic schools, not for 'minority religion' ones. But catholic schools make up 90% of primary schools there.
That way parents who want religious schools can have them, but it you only have one school nearby or you happen to be surrounded by faith schools, you have an equal chance of getting a place at a local school.

It would certainly be possible to ban schools from giving priority on faith grounds. However, the Catholic church in the UK is clear that, should that happen, they would close down all Catholic schools. It may seem unlikely that they would actually follow through with this, but they are currently refusing to allow any Catholic free schools to set up because such schools can only give faith priority for 50% of their places. Indeed, at least one Catholic independent school that currently admits purely on the basis of an entrance test with no priority on faith grounds was prevented from converting to a free school for this reason. So no, it would not be cheaper. It is the decision to stop schools giving priority on faith grounds that would lead to the need to build 25,000 additional schools.

25,000? Do you mean 2,500? I thought there were less than 7,000 faith schools in the UK.

@CoronaPeroni

25,000? Do you mean 2,500? I thought there were less than 7,000 faith schools in the UK.

Sorry, yes. That's a typo.

Ah. That explains a lot.

A Catholic acquaintance of mine got her elder daughter, who was baptised as an infant, into the local Catholic school, but not her younger daughter who was baptised at age 2. They all went to church, and it seemed like a bafling decision at the time, especially with a sibling already at the school. I don't know why her DD2 was baptised late.

Sidenote: I also know a Catholic who was baptised twice! Once privately with just the priest there, because she had to have a major operation at a couple of weeks old, and parents were devout Catholics worried that she wouldn't go to heaven if she died unbaptised, and then again months later with the big family celebration.

@prh47bridge That is quite amazing, how staunchly that stance seems to be held. They put up a fight in other countries too, but the schools weren't closed in the end. It really would be cutting of their nose to spite their face if they just closed all the schools. I suppose they could make them all independent, but surely they wouldn't get nearly the numbers they do now.

@rivierliedje I don't know but I suspect this may be partly driven by the fact that Catholics were a persecuted minority in the UK until relatively recently. Even today, any member of the royal family who joins the Catholic Church must renounce any claim to the throne.

Sidenote: I also know a Catholic who was baptised twice! Once privately with just the priest there, because she had to have a major operation at a couple of weeks old, and parents were devout Catholics worried that she wouldn't go to heaven if she died unbaptised, and then again months later with the big family celebration.

Also side note: I think there’s a separate or different ceremony for the second one. The second one usually comprises just the additional rites that are missed out in the first one such as anointing with oil etc.

OP: check the admission criteria carefully, including any asterisks about what they will accept as a baptism certificate. I’m sure I’ve seen at least 1 where a non catholic baptism is counted where the parents have subsequently converted. Although I don’t know if that would apply in your case. Depending on how oversubscribed schools in your area are, you might also find that her baptism is’t necessary, but that yours will count. One Catholic baptised parent is enough to get you into virtually any catholic school in our diocese.