In year transfer options and relocation- wwyd?

[lking679]

Hi all a bit random but I love having plans and backup plans for the future hence the elaborate post but- we might relocate temporarily whilst my DC’s still young to be near my ageing parents then in all probability end up coming back to the town we’re leaving (will rent out our house in meantime). My parents are 5 hours drive away so very difficult for any regular contact! But our jobs are in London and the town is close by. Officially will be allowed to work from home in our roles but if we want any progression or change employer I’d imagine we’d need to be commuting in.

If/when we move back we live opposite an outstanding primary school, but it’s oversubscribed. So I’m wondering how best to get in given we’ll miss the normal application windows for at least our eldest DC?
For either option we’d move back to our house in January for school applications;

Option 1 would be early move back in say year x, dc 1 would be in January of year 2 and dc2 would be applying for schools. Hoping we could get dc 1 into year 2 by appeal if no places by stating dc1 is applying for school and likely to get in based on distance? But as early years classes are capped not sure that appeal would work until cap is lifted in year 3 if at all. So DC1 could be 7 months in a random school as well as disruption of moving but DC2 should get in.

Option 2 would be a later move back in year z, dc1 would be finishing year 4, dc2 would be finishing year 1 and we’d be applying for schools for dc3. Again hoping they might let dc1 and dc2 in on basis of application for dc3 and our home address but if not once dc3 in we’d appeal again for dc1 and dc2. Class size would be capped for dc2 so could cause a problem.

I know I’m making it very complicated for all of us but feels like life is too short to be dictated to by primary school places.

Gut is to go with option 1 as at least it’s really only dc1 we need to sort out! Just a shame it’d be the January of year 2 when class sizes still capped!

Complicated :p

You need to check what counts as a sibling link, normally it only comes into effect once another child has started at the school, not on application. If a reception/ks1 class is already at capacity (30) it is very difficult to get a place as it is "Infant Class Size" appeal. You may need to accept places at different schools and hope waiting list comes through.

I think you need to find out how big the school is for starters. A 3 form school will have a lot more possible spaces than a 1 form entry. I would also look at the criteria for entry to the school. Does it have a catchment where distance to school counts ( obviously better for you as you live opposite) or or is it random allocation? Either way looking for a place in January is a bit of a risk. I’m not sure you’d get one straight away - you may have to wait til the following September.

You won't get a child in "on appeal" at infants level if the school has classes in multiples of 30 (or some other mixed grouping that leads to classes of 30). So your option 1 is entirely washed out unless a child happens to fortuitously leave at exactly the right moment that you want a place. You may have success at appeal if you wait for Year 3 but sibling link alone is unlikely to be a good enough reason - you'll need other reasons why that school will benefit your child over any other school. And, as you say, this option will lead to your child having to temporarily spend some time in another school prior to being moved - an option, on top of a house move to also move school again when they've just started to make friends is not ideal.

TBH I think your realistic choice is not to fixate on the school near your house (which may not be so outstanding by the time you come back again anyway!). When you come to move find out where there are spaces and consider the best combination of options that will work for your family. And yes, this may mean children in different schools.

If moving near your parents is the right thing to do, move. Figure out schools if/when you return.

ICS regulations apply in Y1 and Y2 so an appeal will only work if the school runs classes of less than 30 or a mistake has been made in the admissions process that cost your child a place (highly unlikely for an in-year admission). Even in Y3 or later, arguing that your child should get a place because you have one or more other children at the school is not a winning argument for appeal. Sibling links may get you higher priority on the waiting list, but they don't win appeals unless there is professional medical evidence that your children have a higher need than normal to be at the same school.

I would also add that just because it is labelled as outstanding doesn’t mean it is right for your child.

Thanks all. The school is great my friend is a teacher there. It’s priority is based on looked after children, then siblings, then distance. It is a two form entry and oversubscribed. I don’t have a child currently in school so don’t know grounds or process for appeals, hence the post. It might be DC1 goes on waiting list and into another school whilst we apply for DC2’s space. She should go up the waiting list if DC2 gets a spot.
Whether we actually move DC1 again I don’t know... There are other good schools around but also bad ones, and morning traffic here is pretty bad so it might be worth moving her. Also all our neighbours kids will go to that school so she would know some of them, but we’ll see.
If I think too hard about it I wouldn’t move at all, but we might live near parents and end up staying there, who knows.

Ask your friend how many children leave and join each year. The fact its over subscribed doesn't matter as much, its the liklihood of a space becoming available. Living opposite means you are likely to be high up on the WL, especially after one joins.

I don’t think there’s much movement, she said 1 or 2 maybe over summer as city dwellers moving outside the m25.
With the in year transfer though it’s the council that handle it, but with an appeal I think the school hears it directly. At least with an appeal then they’d actually get to hear of me, and then they get final say. Might be worth at least trying 🤷🏻‍♀️. But not sure if you can just appeal because you want to!

If the school is its own admission authority it is responsible for appeals but it doesn't actually hear them itself. The appeal is heard by an independent panel who make the decision. The school's only involvement in the hearing would be to oppose your appeal.

I appealed when my children didn't get into the same school. We won because the correct procedures for military children hadn't been followed, but we didn't know that... our basis was it was better for them to be in school together. Appeal boards (which are independent, the school is arguing against you) can be variable but very sympathetic.

The selection criteria is for admission into Reception or Year 7, not in-year applications. They’re generally based on length of time on the waiting list, the only exceptions usually being LAC / EHCP children. Sibling link / distance from school is irrelevant. So it wouldn’t make any difference to your older children’s chance of a place if your younger child got a place to start in Reception.

@Soontobe60

The selection criteria is for admission into Reception or Year 7, not in-year applications. They’re generally based on length of time on the waiting list, the only exceptions usually being LAC / EHCP children. Sibling link / distance from school is irrelevant. So it wouldn’t make any difference to your older children’s chance of a place if your younger child got a place to start in Reception.

I'm not sure this is correct. Round here, it is definitely the selection criteria that is used to determine place on the waitlist. That is why your position can go down as well as up.

That's not true Soon. Waiting lists are ordered by the admission criteria.

No council says in year selection criteria is the same as admission criteria and waiting lists are not first come first served. So if someone was top then we were added and we live closer, have a sibling etc we’d go top.
Not sure that’s fair but not sure what is when it comes to school places.

Interesting about appeals as I say I haven’t any experience of them and could end up just happy in another school or waiting on the waiting list 🤷🏻‍♀️.

If we go back with Dc1 in year 2 can we ask the school to see if they will take her in year 3 when cap lifts.. especially if her sister is starting reception too? I know the cap lifting doesn’t mean anything really as you can’t just double a class size just wondering if they’d be sympathetic. And might be less strange for Dc1 after a summer break and I think local holiday club is run out of the school too!

Soontobe60 is wrong. The waiting list is ordered by the admission criteria. Time on the list is irrelevant.

You'd have pretty much 0 chance of winning an appeal for a year y2 place (unless the council cock up). Y3/4/5/6 you might, but it depends on the school. As part of the appeals process schools have to say why they can't have an extra child, and if the classroom size means capacity is 30, then that's it. You won't win.

But if moving near your parents is what's best for you as a family, then do it. I'd stress more about getting into the 'right' secondary than primary.

Yeah, it’s making me think just move back in the later year z. At least all the kids would be heading into school then and hopefully in before/after school clubs rather than also trying to sort out childcare for those not in school! Might need the school clubs just to cover me as I go on tour around London picking the kids up from different schools! 🙈
Secondaries sort themselves out really... they can do the 11+ and try for grammars or they can go for a couple of local high schools. If we were going to come back we’d do it before secondaries as I think from
12 onwards you really make your lifelong friends.

I’ve had a previous post about should I stay or should I go. But had my kids without any family around me and it’s been hard, my parents and sister are near each other and would be nice to live close by and a ee them often..... Working pattern has now changed so much we have options (they closed my office!) . Even the friends we’ve made here are usually seeing their own extended family at weekends so it’s tricky and lonely! But obviously last 18 months been hard on everyone and might be I’m reeling from the effects of having a baby in lockdown!

You can't just "ask the school" or "hope" they might let your children in. Admissions follow a strict procedure. You will only get in as an in-year application if there is spaces, you get in via the waiting list (ordered in admissions criteria order) or you make a successful appeal (where sibling link alone is unlikely to mean you will win).

You should also check whether the sibling priority works up - in some areas it only applies to younger siblings.

I've just realised that you really are a planner. Assuming your oldest is 3 at most (or you would be making an additional school move for them on top of what you've detailed, meaning 3 moves in just 3 years), DC3 is still a hypothetical child!

I also think you're thinking about the wrong thing. If you're going to move "up north" for 3 or more years, settle down, get to know people, get established with family, get settled in school/pre-school, have the children make friends, I don't know why you would want to move back again and uproot everything on the basis of nebulous "promotion opportunities". Jobs do exist in the North! Plus I suspect wfh opportunities will only increase. It sounds like the decision should be whether you want to move permanently - perhaps thinking about a backstop is just muddying the waters?

@lking679

If we go back with Dc1 in year 2 can we ask the school to see if they will take her in year 3 when cap lifts.. especially if her sister is starting reception too? I know the cap lifting doesn’t mean anything really as you can’t just double a class size just wondering if they’d be sympathetic. And might be less strange for Dc1 after a summer break and I think local holiday club is run out of the school too!

The school won't be able to say they'd take her even in y3. Extra children over 30 can only be admitted from appeals (or in limited other circumstances such as an EHCP) and if there's a space it has to go to the child at the top of the waiting list.

My dh is from around London and his family are an hour away. Unfortunately my MiL is a nightmare (that’s a tale as old as time!) and his sister makes no effort with us. So as I say it’s hard.
We might move back if he struggles to settle in, or if jobs do become an issue as well... I could get a job I’m sure but pay is about 20% less and not sure I can take the cut!
I’d hope we’d settle in and all this would be a non issue, houses are bigger, life is slower, schools are good but just not confident enough to go all in!
(Yes Dc3 a hypothetical child but I am a planner! 😂)

@PastMyBestBeforeDate

That's not true Soon. Waiting lists are ordered by the admission criteria.

Ah, I’ve just checked, and my LA doesn’t actually say what the criteria is. Sorry OP if I got that wrong.