if your child is in racial & cultural minority in school ..

[HairyIrene]

has it worked out alright for them?

its the demographics of where we live so it will be the case where ever ds goes around here
but
we will be asking him to deal with stuff dh or i never had to deal with...
i feel a bit apprehensive about the whole 'choosing a school' thing anyhow..

the best school in terms of results around here that we qualify for (distance wise) will make him one of a just few white faces in the playground and i just wondered how it all works out..

any experiences to share??

DD was the only non-white child in a school of 70

It was fine for 2 yrs then a child started bullying her about her colour

Now she is 1 of about 10 or 12 in a school of nearly 400 and it seems much better

I guess the ratio is less important that the ethos/leadership of the school

oh katymac
i was hoping someone would say that!
its what i think too re: ethos of school etc which does seem good on paper, we have visit next week..

its a predominately asian school, about 90%, the 10% being made up of black, white and chinese, population of school is just under 200..

its almost the cultural thing that worries me more, will he make friends he can play with out of school etc..

It is hard isn't it

DD was different in so many ways - colour was the least of it

We live in a very insular society

We were different by way of religion, manners, accent, priorities, holidays, cars, houses, taste

There are so few similarities between our family and the other children's but it didn't stop DD and them playing together or becoming friends - us adults had a harder time of it

hard yes, bit daunting too..

my feeling is that kids will be kids and just crack on with it
but i do want him to feel part of things in and outside of the building..

did your dd's first school deal with the bullying effectively?...

the schools we have seen so far, seem to have class reps, bully boxes for annonymus messages etc...

it is the place to start, at school, to mix and understand others but with so much tension around culturally just now, i wondered if i was naive to think this...

No - that's why we moved her

I went to a very mixed school (I am white)

DH (Jamaican) went to a very mixed school

DD in London, Liverpool , probably any city in the UK would be in a majority (probably) as she is mixed race

But any child may not fit in due to intellect, finances, attitude or capability

I don't think focussing on difference is the way to look at it

What are the similarities - do you live in similar houses, are you on similar incomes, do you shop at the same shops, will the children go to similar clubs?

Ds1 was the only white boy at his preschool, and ds2 is one of 2 white boys in his class.

In both cases though the classes were very mixed in terms of ethnic orgins, and in particular English is the main common language (although there are a number of children who do not speak English at home). I think that I would have concerns about the impact of a different language being spoken in the playground, and I haven't had to deal with that.

In terms of school, all the parents are very supportive of school and encourage their children. There have been no "problems" for either of my sons to not be in a majority. And even though children of "Asian" ethnicity would be in the majority, actually they come from a number of different countries/cultures/religions, so even their there isn't a single dominant block.

That said we have had a couple of things worth noting if only anecdotally. It was for example a shock when I discovered that ds2's first "selfportrait" showed him with brown skin and black hair (he is blond with blue eyes!). It was more understandable when I realised that his painting matched all of the other paintings on his table! At his school they start swimming in reception, so there is a certain amount of curiosity about why some of the boys are circumcised. And there is a great deal of curiosity about diets as most Asian boys are either vegetarian or eat Halal. The school has changed over to all-halal meals, but it appears that the overall quality fo the school meals went down as a result - eg the roast dinner disappeared from the menu and was replaced by jacket potatoes and fillings!

There is also a huge Indian family network so loads of siblings and cousins at the school. This tends to mean that those families don't tend to bother with as many playdates etc. But that isn't anything to do with colour - it is just down to family dynamics, and I have often found that the same seems to hold through for a lot of large families regardless of colour. When inviting boys for playdates for the first time I usually try to indicate what I would suggest feeding them and checking with the parents first in order to at least indicate that I will try not to feed all boys indiscriminately with sausages.

The Father Christmas aspect is also a bit odd - most of the non-white familes go along with it (though typically the children will have received their gifts at Eid or Diwali say). However I suspect that the non-Christian families seem to spill the beans earlier than some of the rest.

Ds1 managed to create a stir in Sunday School by announcing that we were muslims. He arrived at this conclusion because the Sunday school class (aged 4-5) had all been asked to sit on a mat in order to pray (in the same way as you get carpet time or circle time at school). To ds1 prayer mat = muslim! The school is actually CofE so you do get some odd sights of loads of Muslim and Hindu boys singing carols and hymns during the year.

So I'd check and see if the language of the playground is an issue, but if not then certainly don't be worried about it. As Katymac indicates, it is the ethos of the school that matters.

katymac, ladymuck

my internet connection was painfully slow last night then crashed..

km, you are right to say i should concentrate more on what is in common, as there is plenty - we live in same area, and want the best for our kids..thats really it, full stop, isnt it..

we are new round here and many parents i've spoken to dont consider this school for these reasons...
its not my or dh's view, we are tending towards the best educational institution ds is eligible for..

ladymuck, your post is very interesting..

the english language concern is one we do have, but the other schools we've seen so far seem to give extra tutution to non english speakers..
i never thought about what was spoken in playground, its a good point..
also its a secular school but will i imagine celebrate the festivals of its pupils which i have no problem with...
(tbh i feel a fraud myself over santa, i hate the fibbing!)...

i think the large asian network of family locally does go in large part to explain things too, you are right..it happens in any large self supporting network..

its just not helped lately, as the tensions in the area have been heightened by the police sweeney-style actions with arrests and general intimidation of muslims..
and after jack straw comments on the hijab, the amount of young woman covering up increased sharply as a direct result i am sure...
tbh i feel ashamed to white sometimes

it just doesnt help the local harmony at all...no amount of council posters telling us we are one community counteracts this...

thanks for your comments and advice, very much appreciated

i'll visit school next week and check it out

anyone else?

My DD started in Reception in our local primary three years ago which is predominately comprised of Bengali Muslims with a few Somali and Algerian families. There was one other non Muslim girl and one other non-Muslim boy in the school of about 200 children. For a couple of years everything was fine but as she got older the difference between her and her classmates became more pronounced. The problem wasn't skin colour but religion. The school is known locally as the Muslim School even though it is a secular state primary and parents from around the borough sent their children there. In the end I moved my DD as I was fed up of the inability of the staff to tackle the bullying she was suffering due to her being non-Muslim and the lack of inclusivity. Things came to a head at Christmas when all things Christmassy were banned by the governers. No other festivals other than Eid were celebrated when the school would be shut. The problem was not the children or the majority of the parents just a minority of adults who wanted their children to have a very segregated upbringing. DD is now at a very mixed Cof E school and has friends of every religion and nationality. I think the issue is when one particular group is dominant rather than being in the minority per se. DD has lots of friends who are Muslim but she also has friends who are not Muslims. She is much happier.

glammama,santaoftheopera

thanks for your replies...i am shocked at the bullying aspect of things, and the inability of the schools to deal with this..
soto..am really surprised that urdu was spoken by teaching assistant..
am saddened by your dd's experiences...

this is giving me alot of food for thought and also questions i need to ask when we visit..

i just want him to feel welcome and part of things so need to hear all types of experiences, thanks...

No experienes to share so far but it is something I worry a little about for the future, but probably more in the sense that that my DS will be 'different' rather than obviously racially or culturally different. He'll be the only foreign kid in school, and probably in the whole town, when he starts primary school in a couple of years. And I've already seen here that kids can be mean when one of them is different, as the previous posts have shown.

Will be watching this thread with interest for any tips or advice.

Yes, you're right, santaoftheopera, and we'll have to wait and see what the school leadership and teachers will be like in the 'big school'. At the moment he is at nursery and the teachers/headmistress have been wonderful at helping him fit in, learn the language, and basically become 'the same' as the others kids. Invaluable for when he joins a school of hundreds of kids.

We've only had one experience of the whole 'infidel' thing here but that was from a man old enough to know better not kids, and I would be very surprised if ds came across that in school. Hope not anyway. World politics would have to become even more extreme for that to start making changes in this society . (Bosnia not UK btw).

I was 'the foreign kid' too once and although I never had any bad experiences because of it, part of me doesn't want my DS to have anything that makes him a potential target. Which, I guess, is normal parental over-worrying!

santa of the opera
i am still a bit surprised at this, urdu speaking, the schools we have seen lately say that the kids are taken into special groups for all kinds of language coaching
and round here they will have many languages to cope with, as many eastern european kids too..
needs of the many versus the few is also a strange statement in this case, surely they all need to know the language so she should have been helping ALL them get the skills for later life, that is a diservice to all her pupils imho and also extremely rude..

I was annoyed on MN when they had Beverely Hughes minister for children live chat as i was asking about provision for language coaching at pre school level but all she seemed to do was repeat the damn question, not attempt to answer it!

the Infidel thing is horrendous, i know they are only repeating what is said at home, but that is truly shocking and would have thought a school would have pounced on this sort of thing immediately ...

HairyIrene, ds goes to a aschool which is about 2/3 ethnic monorities - but which has an excellent reputation as to how it deal with it.

The EAL (English as an Additional Language" provision is an important part of it. The ethos of our school is that it is embedded within the school and all the teachers play a role in ensuring that all the children reach the requiered levels of literacy.

it's an issue currnelty close to my heart as Glasgow City Council is currently reviewing how it delivers its EAL and bi-lingual provision.

I found this link Best Practice in Bethnal Green useful for some of my research. It goes to show the a school with the right ethos can still achieve results that are above the national average despite, on the fact of it, starting with the major idsadvange of multiple languages (and also a poor area?).

There was a thread with same title a few months back. I remember some pretty horrendous language.
It's a very interesting debate though. look it up it went on for ages.

Sorry can't be much help. We live the exact opposite situation. British school abroad. 99% white expat brits, my son clearly oriental with muslim name.

pretty bird, will check out your link thanks!
i think you are right, if the school is on top of these issues then it can work to benefit of all society really.
its just difficult trying to all assess all this in short visit!

slim22 thanks, will do search and find it..
how does your ds get on? are they inclusive?

he's fine thanks. but I do feel it's sooooooo white!
I feel it's difficult for ME to blend in. Always lived in central london. His nursery was in camden. This feels more like surrey or Kent iykwim?

I don't have direct experience - my children are mixed race - and we their school is a pretty good mix of ethnic and cultural backgrounds.

However my SIL has 2 little girls who are they only black girls in their school, little village in Hampshire. They are "officialy" ESL - because they mainly speak English at home, however they also speak perfectly fluent English with a very English accent (infact DH and I were teasing her that her children were sound rather "posh" in comparison to ours children). Just something to bear in mind regarding the number of children that have English as their 2nd language - is doesn't nessecarily mean that they don't speak very good English - just that it's not their first language)

They've not encountered any problems in the school with their DD's being the only black children (the rest are all white - no mixed race or asian). However, as has already been mentioned above this is probably largely down to the management of the school.

dd spend a year as one of only 2/3 white children in a school, when we lived in croydon. She made friends easily, but had few friends back to home, as the mothers tended to form groups according to their own race/religion and it was hard to get friendly with them. The language wasn't an issue in the playground, she actually picked up quite a bit of tamil when became best friends with two south indian girls.

The main problems for me were that she really didn't learn much in the classroom. I felt that a lot of time was spent on teaching english as a second language and so dd didn't really learn what she should have been learning. It did teach her a lot culturally though, which I am really glad she had the experience of. Being so multicultural (about 60% asian, 35% black) there was a lot of emphasis in learning about other cultures and religions. I do feel she misses out on that now she is at a cofe school, where they can spend a whole term of RE learning about one story in the bible! I have to admit though, I am glad she is in a different school now though because of the academic side of it, though I wouldn't hesitate in sending her to a similar school with a better academic record.

chopster this is exacyly how i feel dd in same situation we live in croydon, worrying me a little dh not so bothered which annoys me!!
Had parents evening last night was not that impressed teacher said dd social skills were not that good but all other teachers ect have always said they were excellent