Year 6 - RHE covering gender identity

[pembelimum]

Got a letter from school about Relationships and Health Education. In summer 2 they're covering happy relationships, what to expect from puberty and what is gender identity. 1 and 2 seem straightforward but I'm not sure about 3. Large portion of school population is religious/conservative background and I know consequently school has chosen not to teach sex/reproduction even though they could under new RHE guidance as they're keen not to court controversy with parents (which is understandable). We've talked about sex at home so DC is aware. But, I'm just wondering whether covering gender ID might be very confusing especially if not all children understand/are aware of sex/reproduction etc. Have any other parents or teachers on here seen how gender ID is taught in primary and can you offer any insight on how schools manage this well with this age group? There is an opportunity to ask questions ahead of the topic being taught. Does anyone have any tips around what to ask/look out for to understand whether this is sensible and going to be dealt with well?

I have a child in y6 who has been doing these lessons. It has prompted some great discussion and I think that can only be a good thing.

Gender identity crops up everywhere now even on CBBC and in children's books and I'd be surprised if a year 6 child wasn't aware already.

I think it's always better to address these topics at home initially instead of letting school approach them first.

Completely agree it's better to address at home first - then you can introduce the concepts in a way that you want your child to understand rather than trust whatever training materials the school might use and present as fact. I've just bought two Usborne puberty books off a used book site - I wanted the old one from the 90s that DH and I both had that is straightforwardly factual about the physical changes of puberty. Then we can discuss stuff as a family so they're not hearing stuff for the first time at school or some mangled version in the playground from other kids.

There is no national programme, your dc’s school will have created their own approach. You could ask them for more detail.
This group compares some of the main campaign group materials to actual reality/UK law.
safeschoolsallianceuk.net/

Thanks OneEpisode, useful to know

Thanks bobisbored, is there are any chance you'd be able to summarise what they covered please?

Just ask the school for more detail on how they are planning to cover it. They are supposed to consult parents in developing relationships education, which is the banner this will come under.

They could be planning something really cool, like unpicking gender stereotypes. You never know ;)

Thanks Aalvarino, I can't make the consultation meeting as it clashes with work but have requested they share the materials with me. Fingers crossed it's cool!

I haven't been able to work out what has come from school and what has been talked about on the playground to be honest. She knows about loads of different types of sexuality, many that I have had to google myself 🤦🏼‍♀️ Her friends all reckon they're something other than heterosexual as that's the cool thing right now! I guess the good thing is they all seem to be totally accepting of others differences and preferences.
School should send you copies of the lesson plans. Keep asking!

Gender identity isn’t really about different types of sexuality. Kids understand boy/girl identities, and they aren’t related to sex.

It is a big theme in the secondary schools as lots of kids (many girls, it seems) - question their gender identity. Among my Dd friends it seems to be quite an important issue, at least at this point.
And none of them are having relationships yet - neither emotional nor physical.

So - my guess at the primary level they’ll talk about different ways kids may feel about who they are. Use of pronouns. That it’s OK, etc.

The idea of gender identity is fairly new. But we do have ways of dealing with other controversial notions and beliefs in schools. We manage tolerance of very different beliefs quite well, in fact.

So the best way of dealing with schools teaching about gender identity might be to link with other controversial ideas that we have had time to sort out and come to a reasonable compromise on, allowing tolerance of different metaphysical or religious points of view.

Some people think there are such things as immortal souls or guardian angels. Others think the idea of an immortal soul or a guardian angel is just silly. So in school we teach children that some believe, some do not, and that we should respect people we disagree with.

It is important to note, however, that we do not think it a good idea for schools to try to convert children one way or another. That we leave to parents. We would be shocked – it would just be wrong – to find a school teaching the existence of immortal souls or guardian angels as fact.

Likewise, some people think there are such things as gender identities. Others think the idea of a gender identity is just silly. So in school we should teach children that some believe, some do not, and that we should respect people we disagree with.

It is important to note, however, that we do not think it a good idea for schools to try to convert children one way or another. That should be left to parents. We would be shocked – it would just be wrong – for a school to teach the existence of gender identity as fact.

In short, sauce for the (immortal soul) goose should equally be sauce for the (gender identity) gander.

@9toenails thank you! This is such a clear expression of the issue. I had a chat with DC (10) this morning about the difference between facts and beliefs. We talked about the fact people with very strongly held beliefs will often believe their beliefs are fact and it's worth considering when people tell us things, whether those things are fact or belief. We also talked about how it's important to be respectful of people's beliefs even if we don't share them.

I'm really keen to see the materials from school now - I want to know how they're going to position this. I really hope it's sensible! I'm a bit apprehensive as I know if it isn't I'll feel I have to engage with the feedback but I really don't want to get involved in controversy.

@9toenails I've thought for some time that we should class a lot of what is currently considered to be "woke" principles as religious dogma, for instance the concept of gender identity, that transwomen are women, that biological sex can be changed, that white people are de facto racist because they are white and any attempt to quibble with this is evidence of white supremacy beliefs etc. If "wokism" or "transgenderism" is taught as one religion or set of beliefs among many, and in schools as a "some people believe...others believe..." we have much better and more productive ways of dealing with the conflicts that arise in our society as a result of differing beliefs.

OP - I think you are confusing issues here somewhat. And possibly are doing a disservice to your son.
It is true that some things can be facts and some are beliefs.
But with ‘transgenderism’ - it’s more complex. You are confusing the facts - that some people can feel that their identify is different to what society/born gender expectations.
To the ‘beliefs’ about what practical rules can be applied to accommodate these people - toilets, sports participation, etc.

The beliefs beed and can be discussed. But facts that those people exist and used to suffer before their condition became recognised - is not deniable really.

My guess is that at the primary school the focus will be more on making kids aware that allow people feel differently about themselves. And about recognising that it’s ok to feel that way.
(Similar to the conversation about some people fall in love with different genders, while others do with the same, etc)

I am not here waving a transgender flag. Personally - I think most of DD friends are just struggling with puberty and these days ‘transgender’ can be used to give them some outlet for making a diagnosis out of normal process of body transformation.

But - at the same time, there is no denying that there is a small percentage of people who do keep feeling their body is wrong for their identity after they pass puberty.

@MMmomDD

OP - I think you are confusing issues here somewhat. And possibly are doing a disservice to your son. It is true that some things can be facts and some are beliefs. But with ‘transgenderism’ - it’s more complex. You are confusing the facts - that some people can feel that their identify is different to what society/born gender expectations. To the ‘beliefs’ about what practical rules can be applied to accommodate these people - toilets, sports participation, etc.

The beliefs beed and can be discussed. But facts that those people exist and used to suffer before their condition became recognised - is not deniable really.

My guess is that at the primary school the focus will be more on making kids aware that allow people feel differently about themselves. And about recognising that it’s ok to feel that way.
(Similar to the conversation about some people fall in love with different genders, while others do with the same, etc)

I am not here waving a transgender flag. Personally - I think most of DD friends are just struggling with puberty and these days ‘transgender’ can be used to give them some outlet for making a diagnosis out of normal process of body transformation.

But - at the same time, there is no denying that there is a small percentage of people who do keep feeling their body is wrong for their identity after they pass puberty.

Actually, MMmomDD it seems to be you who are thoroughly confused. OP’s issue concerns teaching about gender identity. If there is no such thing, the feelings you describe are just mistaken.

It does not help that you mistyped (I presume), ‘… some people can feel that their identify is different to what society/born gender expectations.’ I wonder what you meant to say there. OK, you mean ‘identity’, I suppose; but what ‘their identity is different to what society/born gender expectations’ might mean is beyond me.

Nor does it help when your English goes awry: ‘To the ‘beliefs’ about what practical rules can be applied to accommodate these people - toilets, sports participation, etc.’ is not a well-formed sentence, for all that it begins capitalised and ends with a stop. Again, I wonder what you meant to say.

As for ' The beliefs beed ... Huh?

Mistakes like these confuse. But no matter, really. The issue is clear. Some people think there is such a thing as gender identity. Others think there is no such thing. Given this basic disagreement, schools should no more teach children there is such a thing as gender identity than they should teach them there is such a thing as an immortal soul.

And, well, MMmomDD , you end with ‘… their body is wrong for their identity …’. Some of us think this is nonsense, pure and simple. Thinking so, we do not wish children to be taught that – contrary to fact – such nonsense makes sense.

"Some people think ‘ their body is wrong for their identity ’ makes sense." By all means, teach children that fact.

Likewise, "Some people think transubstantiation makes sense" : teach that fact.

But do not teach that it is a fact that transubstantiation makes sense . And do not teach that it is a fact that ‘their body is wrong for their identity’ makes sense.

Do you understand now, MMmomDD?

[Reading this over, the tone seems harsh. But MMmomDD opened with a suggestion that OP was ‘ confusing issues’. Such a challenge might expect a robust reply. So I leave matters there.]

I must have been multitasking when I typed what I did before - so it came out wonky.
I will clarify.

It doesn’t really matter that some of you - ‘believe’ they gender identity doesn’t exist.
There are people who feel that they were born in the wrong bodies. People (adults) do get diagnosed with gender dysphoria and they go through painful procedures to change their bodies.
They are not some sort of religious fanatics or mentally ill.
Your position is no different to those denying homosexuality just a while back. (Or still now in some countries)
Gender identity does exist.

Personally - I believe it’s not anything that affects a large amount of people. And yes - I’d also wonder why primary school kids need to be exposed to that.
My only guess is that because the teenagers become hyper aware of it in secondary these days when they get exposed to social media. And on that basis - maybe some sort of introduction is useful.
And - as I was saying before - that introduction would most likely just tell them that some kids might feel different to others, and that it is Ok to do so.

I also said that in my observation - among Dd friends is almost fashionable to think they are transgender, or something (anything really) different from plain boring normal. They all seem to be obsessed with pronouns and differently gendered names.
I think majority of them will grow out of it, eventually.

Society we live in is evolving. With more nuanced recognition of many issues. Those create new issues that we as a society are facing and discussing.
Our kids are growing up in a world where they have a lot wider range of what is ‘normal, natural and OK’. It’s freer, but I think is also more confusing and hard to figure out.

You can try to deny it, and shield them from it. But it won’t work for long.

@MMmomDD

I'm not sure I understand some of the comments you've levelled at me. See for example,

But facts that those people exist and used to suffer before their condition became recognised - is not deniable really.

I haven't suggested anywhere in my post that people with beliefs about gender identity and/or who suffer as a result of those beliefs don't exist.

But I don't share the belief you describe that it's possible to be born in the wrong body. That's not to say some people don't feel that way, I can accept that they might but I don't share that belief or a belief that it's necessarily helpful to pursue a different body/take on different pronouns.

You've said this seems to be fashionable and your DC and their friends all seem to be obsessed with this stuff. I guess it's because, as you've pointed out, this belief about one's body being wrong can cause the holder of the belief suffering, I'm really keen for my DC to accept the bodies they have and not get caught up in this fashion of thinking their bodies are somehow 'wrong'.

I think it's very helpful to think about it in a similar way as religious beliefs. My DS is already surrounded at school with children from families with very strongly held religious beliefs that we don't share. They're his friends and he's capable of understanding that those beliefs are important to his friends and their families without him having to believe the same things. I think that's potentially helpful as he already has experience of understanding/accepting others who think differently. If he had a friend who felt they were born in the wrong body and wanted to change their pronouns/consider surgery etc. of course I would want him to be respectful and kind to that person but would hope he could also assess critically the notion that one's body can be wrong.

I am very interested to see how school will present this particularly as to date they haven't taught sex and reproduction. My son tells me they haven't covered sex organs or the differences between male and female either. I know from conversation with one of the SLT at school that they've elected not to teach sex as they expect it to be controversial. I absolutely agree with you it's helpful to discuss in school ideas children might hear about in the media etc. I don't see how they can cover gender identity in a way that's clear when they haven't yet taught sex differences. I also don't see gender identity as less controversial a topic than sex.

@pembelimum

I also want my Dd - and teenagers in general to hear more of the message that puberty is normal and that it takes time to adjust to that change. In addition to the message that there is no one way to be male or female. So that a tomboy girl who doesn’t like dresses didn’t have to feel that she has a diagnosis and is in a wrong body. Ana same for a boy who isn’t a traditionally alpha type.
Which I think is what is happening to an extent.

However your approach of dismissing a condition that a small people do have will not be helpful if your son actually comes across someone who is dealing with such issues.
Saying it’s a ‘belief’ implies it can be right/wrong. And can change.

Yes - among the many ‘transgender’ teens these days - majority will not be actually transgender. But some may be and will grow up and their condition will continue causing them suffering. And, as adults they will be able to make a choice of treating it.

So - I don’t think we can say it is all based on their wrong beliefs. No more than we can say that, say depressed people ‘believe’ they are unhappy, or homosexual people ‘believe’ that they are attracted to same sex partners.
Where does it end?

So - in hindsight - I wish gender identity were covered more and earlier at schools, so more kids didn’t have to use that as a crutch going through puberty.

And as a side note - if you think kids aren’t aware of the sexual differences between boys and girls just because it hasn’t been covered at school by Y6 - you’d be surprised.

MMmomDD:
They are not some sort of religious fanatics or mentally ill.
Your position is no different to those denying homosexuality just a while back. (Or still now in some countries)
Gender identity does exist.

You are wrong about gender identity. But that is not relevant to this thread so I will not argue it here.

Some people think transubstantiation is a thing. Others think they are wrong. Nothing observable in the world is evidence one way or another. (In fact, given the nature of the idea what believers say it is it is difficult to imagine what such evidence could possibly be.)

Anyone who claims to think same-sex attraction is not a thing can be refuted simply, clearly, definitively and easily: same-sex attraction is an observable feature of our world.

(Ask someone who they feel they are sexually attracted to, and note that to feel attracted is to be attracted. This is perhaps obvious, but reminders are sometimes useful.)

Is gender identity like transubstantiation or same-sex attraction? It behoves those who would claim the latter to point to observable features of the world confirming its existence. So far none has been forthcoming. So we should think of it in the same way – and, given the controversy surrounding it, treat it similarly – to the idea of transubstantiation.

It foments dissent and division to call people who believe in transubstantiation ‘religious fanatics’ or ‘mentally ill’. Doing so shows lack of respect for such people. (This is a different matter, OP, from respecting their beliefs, note: we should teach our children respect for believers whether their beliefs are respectable or not .)

In short, we should not allow teachers to teach transubstantiation as fact – it is at best metaphysical – rather we should demand it be taught simply as “Some people (whom we should nevertheless respect ), believe in transubstantiation”.

And sauce for the transubstantiation goose is sauce also for the gender identity gander.

@9toenails

Not sure why is it so important to you to insist that your personal beliefs are the final authority on the subject.

However - gender dysphoria (and identity as part of symptom is it) - is a recognised condition that is studied by a variety of scientific fields from psychiatry to neurobiology, endocrinology, etc.

It is hardly metaphysical - no matter how much you’d like it to be true.

But it’s an emotional subject for many - you seem to be in that camp - and hence any sort of rational/factual argumentation is dismissed.

And in today’s society - you’ll you your children a disservice by trying to frame it as some sort of religious movemen. They’ll have to live in a world that is different to the one we grew up in - with a lot more nuance.

It is a new field and the one that is causing a lot of controversy. And - lots of discussions that I do believe are way too emotionally charged on all sides. But it’s futile to deny that it is here to stay.

I am not here waving a transgender flag. In fact, Dd considers me borderline transphobic because I don’t just jump onto her and her friends new and evolving pronouns and names. I have told her that I will get on board if/when her friends are through puberty and are fully mature to be making any choices or statements about who they are. So - in my book - teenagers are still work in progress.
But it’s different from denying that adults can have a recognised condition.

MMmomDD:
(To me) Not sure why is it so important to you to insist that your personal beliefs are the final authority on the subject.

This is bizarre. You seem not to have understood anything I said.

I have been arguing that gender identity, a notion with controversial ontological status (some think it exists, others that it does not), should not be taught in schools as fact – much the same as matters such as immortal souls or transubstantiation, which are not taught as fact because of similar controversy over their ontological status.

I did say that although you are wrong to think gender identity exists, I would not argue the case here because that was not what the thread was about.

I am not sure how else I could have said this in a way you might have understood, MMmomDD . Perhaps, though, the point needs making that the existence or not of gender identity is controversial?

Here goes. MMmomDD thinks gender identity exists: “ … gender dysphoria (and identity as part of symptom is it) ” she says, “- is a recognised condition that is studied by a variety of scientific fields …” …and earlier, “ Gender identity does exist .”

OK, now, well others say gender identity does not exist. Here is one, for example, Alex Byrne, Professor of Philosophy, Department of Linguistics and Philosophy, MIT .

(MIT is Massachusetts Institute of Technology , usually thought of as quite a reputable university; Byrne is a generally well respected senior professor there.)

Byrne: “If there is some kind of “gender identity” that is universal in humans, and which causes dysphoria when mismatched with sex, it remains elusive. No one has yet found a way of detecting its presence, and verifying that it is causally responsible for dysphoria” . (See link to What is gender identity at web.mit.edu/abyrne/www/)

Given such strong differences of opinion as to whether there such a thing as gender identity, I suggested it behoves schools not to teach its existence (or non-existence) as fact. This is not ‘to insist that [my] personal beliefs are the final authority on the subject,’ as you claim, MMmomDD. It is the polar opposite of that.

Once again, MMmomDD, I wonder what on earth you are up to here.