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Primary education

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HELP! 8yo son challenging / disruptive in school, fine at home.

14 replies

ConcernedDad37 · 26/04/2021 19:25

Hi, all. (also posted in SEN).
First time poster here. Looking for advice or where I can turn to because at the moment I’m a bit lost. – Very lost. I know it’s a bit of a read – but if you can offer any advice id be so grateful.
I’ve been struggling with my 8yo son’s behaviour at school since September. He is persistently disruptive in class and has now been suspended twice. On the first occasion I was mortified – he struck a teacher. More recently, he has been suspended for general disruption, throwing things, kicking doors, not listening etc. He appears to have some sort of anxiety / anger problem where if he cant do a task, or doesn’t do it well, he rips it up, clears his desk and has tipped his table and chairs over. He has been sat alone at a desk at the front of the class since the first week.
I cannot stress enough that we (me and my wife) do not recognise this child. At home he is fine – sure there can be problems with his older brother (11Yo) but he would not dream of kicking the doors, walls, shouting at his parents or throwing anything. He is a lovely considerate boy, comes out with a few real gems, loves hugs etc. The behaviour at school is a total mystery to me, and he confesses he cannot control his anger when it ‘washes over him’.
We were told back in September there had been occasions where he had been difficult in class. This was euphemised, so we never really appreciated the gravity of it. This continued till mid-November when he was suspended for 2 days hitting a teacher. We engaged with the school and fully supported them, agreed the suspension was fair and that we would assist in any way possible. The SENCO / School stated that they wanted him to remain at school for mornings only, and that we taught him from home in the afternoon with work sent via google classrooms. This started from that point onwards, and continued until early March. We had become frustrated that after requesting review after 2 weeks (this became 3 weeks, then 4 weeks, then just didn’t happen) to look at the effectiveness of this ‘strategy’ we had not had a review to date. When the school opened up again, the headteacher called to say that our son will remain on half days, which I challenged. A review was set up for 2 weeks after that time, which headteacher did not attend, at which point I stated that my wife and I would be withdrawing our support for this strategy. It felt like the school were looking to dump the problem with the parents to maximise their resources, as our son was considered -resource intensive. (Headteacher stated to me that if we had a 1 to 1 resource, our son would be fine, but she did not have the budget). I have been called in 5 or 6 times to ‘reset’ him, when he gets heightened, I talk with him for 5 minutes to calm him down and he can re-enter the class.
We want him back in the classroom to learn, as his education and social interaction with other kids has been suffering badly. So we withdrew out support, and also asked for copies of everything. SIMS / CPOMS / all records relating to SEN. At this point, we can see the gravity of our sons behaviour, and the recorded incidents. Notes from October / November talk about getting Primary Behaviour Services involved – nothing has happened to date. Behaviour is extreme uncontrollable anger, manifesting as throwing, kicking tables and chairs, shouting, (but NEVER hitting another child). He is told to leave the class – sometimes he can self regulate – sometimes not.
The headteacher I am sure thinks this is a parenting issue, and that we are at fault. Unfortunately, she also started in September, as the previous head left. We had a great relationship with him, and he also knew my older son well. My 8Yo sons teacher also taught my 11Yo son, who became school prefect and knows him well, and so knows this is not any lack of parenting skills on our part.
I am now totally lost and don’t know what to do. He is such a nice kid at home, as good as his older brother, so I don’t know what’s happening in the school walls. This second suspension seems extreme, given that there are records of worse behaviour that he did not get suspended for – it seems now its personal, tit for tat. I requested full access to the records (not a small amount of office work) and they now go hard by the rules. They are now citing their behaviour policy, which they never did before. All trust with the school has been eroded (apart from his class teacher who does the best she can with 30 kids). Some of the referrals seem dishonest, stating ‘no parental cooperation’ and ‘child has an educational level of a 5 year old’, the latter firmly disagreed with by the class teacher.
Sorry it was a bit of a bumble, throwing thoughts onto a page.
I don’t know what resource there is available , who we can talk to. If anybody has any ideas pleas, I would be so grateful to hear from you.
Regards
Dad

OP posts:
Rugbytragic · 27/04/2021 13:42

Hi there - so sorry this is happening. Your poor kid. Totally appreciate his school behaviour is extreme (as long as the school is describing accurately) but their current approach is extremely isolating and draws constant attention to his position. How mortifying for him to sit by himself at the front and leave halfway through the day knowing his classmates all understand why. I personally think the schools whole approach from start to finish has been completely diabolical and not supportive of either your son or you.

Has there been any investigation into why he behaves like this? I am so far from an expert but this is localised behaviour that’s out of character. Children tend to be themselves at home bc it’s a trusted safe environment. So that is where he is his true self. Therefore you’d be excused for thinking something terrible is happening at school to trigger him. Is there a child he’s afraid of or god forbid an adult? Or perhaps the school work itself. His anxiety comes from somewhere. Can you get him to see a psych ed expert or even just a child psychologist? Poor kid is clearly miserable in a place he has no control or authority and somewhere he spends a lot of time. Would be surprised if that attitude doesn’t spill over into home eventually and then you have a real problem. I would def try and coax it out of him or get an expert to do it. Cannot even hope to address what’s going on until you understand what’s going on inside his poor little head :(

ConcernedDad37 · 27/04/2021 15:23

Rugbytragic - Many thanks for the kind words. I have been given some good advice from the SEN forum and will be acting on that this week. Ive posted a bit more information on there - ill probably get told off for having 2 live threads on the same topic, but i was desperate for help and advice.

Im looking at getting an EP to assess him and his behaviour in school. Heis an open and honest child who would tell us if he was afraid of someone or something. Any frustration or anxaiety with schooling seems to bummle into anger, Sometimes he can self regulate but sometimes not.

Today he has had a wonderful day without incident, which we will praise and focus on for tomorrow.

Thanks

OP posts:
ConcernedDad37 · 27/04/2021 15:24

**bubble not bummle - cant find the edit button.

OP posts:
sadpapercourtesan · 27/04/2021 15:39

What an absolute horror story.

The thing that stands out most urgently to me is that you are right - the relationship between the school and your family has broken down. Speaking as someone who is (finally) at the end of a long, traumatic, battle-strewn journey with a child with additional needs and completely unco-operative schools - I recommend that you move your son to a different school. Is that a possibility? If he's 8 he can make a fresh start somewhere else without too much disruption to his education - and it's not as if he is getting much of that - or healthy social interaction - in this school. It sounds as though the head is working towards off-rolling him anyway - they're already breaking the law with the partial timetable (we've been through that crap, as well)

Secondly, I suspect that your son could tell you a lot more about what has been happening for him, if he could find the words. His confidence and self-esteem will have been badly corroded by the way the school has treated him (which is unforgiveable, but sadly not uncommon) so I would work on building that up, spending time one-to-one with him doing things that make him feel good, and listening to him/letting him talk. Mine tended to open up on journeys, or long walks - I learned a lot of detail about what was actually going on in school just from being around him while he was relaxed and making the odd gentle inquiry around it. You are only hearing the school's "side of the story", but children don't explode for no reason.

Thirdly, is there any possibility that he has a developmental issue such as a processing disorder or ASD? There's not enough info in your post to form an opinion on that (and it would be irresponsible anyway!) but his level of frustration/anxiety/anger would lead me to consider it, especially if there were any other issues that you haven't mentioned here. Our child has ASD, and by god the diagnosis came in handy over the years when we needed to use our elbows to get the school to fulfil its duty of care when they would much rather have just isolated him, blamed him for being bullied, told him "just try to be more normal", or managed him out of the place altogether.

And I'm sure you're doing this already, but keep notes of everything. Keep every communication, however trivial, and make notes before any meetings. The head is used to managing parents and getting what he wants, so you have to be on your game.

BlankTimes · 27/04/2021 16:12

He appears to have some sort of anxiety / anger problem where if he cant do a task, or doesn’t do it well, he rips it up, clears his desk and has tipped his table and chairs over

This is pretty common behaviour.

Do read 'The Explosive Child' by Dr Ross Greene and also look at his comprehensive website 'Lives in the Balance. www.livesinthebalance.org/parents-families

Also look towards starting an assessment for your son's educational needs, e.g. what's his processing speed, how's his executive function, does he have difficulty understanding instructions, is his hearing okay, all of the basic things everyone takes for granted, until a child's behavior lets you know they are struggling.

Really the SENCO ought to be all over this because children who display opposite behaviour at home and at school are letting everyone know they have a problem they can't fix themselves and their behaviour is a cry for help. However, some SENCOs are brilliant and others aren't and can't see why traditional methods of carrot and stick don't work for all children.

It's possible he's neurodiverse, so do make sure that's mentioned at the time of any assessments he has, just to keep it in the frame and look at boys presentation of ADD, ADHD, ASD, Dyspraxia and Dyslexia, and bear in mind that many traits of those conditions overlap, just to see if any of the descriptions of those conditions seem to apply to your son. None of the lists will fully apply of course, but if there are quite a few traits, then it could be worthwhile pursuing an assessment for him.

As you've said, you have another child who doesn't respond to the same triggers in the same way, so it's not your parenting that should be held up for scrutiny.

Do remember that SENCO, GP, teachers and most people you'll be in contact with about his education are not qualified to diagnose and AN, therefore do not drop it if they say he couldn't possibly have whichever condition you've suggested.

HSHorror · 28/04/2021 14:56

If there was say adhd i dont think it would come on so suddenly seems more like stress etc or emotions.
Is he behind suddenly with work after lockdown 1.?

BlankTimes · 28/04/2021 19:00

If there was say adhd i dont think it would come on so suddenly

The thing is, for conditions like ASD this is exactly what happens. The child (or even young adult or even mature adult) copes until things are just too much and extreme behaviour or a breakdown ensues.

No child will be diagnosed with a neurodiverse condition they don't have, assessment does not automatically mean a diagnosis.

thehairyhog · 28/04/2021 19:59

There are so many stresses at school that are simply not there at home. His behaviours are stress responses and hard to control. Most people (including teachers) are woefully bad at recognising this and just move to punish causing more stress (recognising that teachers have a very difficult job).

Not sure what the particular stress is for him (sensory overload? Noise? Lights? Something about the schoolwork?) can you help identify these and reduce stress and work with teachers on how best to respond? Can he be put forward for an assessment using the information from the school?

Could take forever though. In the meantime. Also recommend the Explosive Child as per PP - this book helps you to identify and deal with 'lagging skills' in a child. Also recommend Beyond Behaviours by Mona Delahooke about changing the way we see and deal with 'behaviours'.

suitcaseofdreams · 28/04/2021 21:20

They’ve probably said this on the SEN thread but he’s more than likely neuro diverse in some way or another and at the very least he has needs which are not being met in school. All behaviour is communication - it’s just a case of figuring out what he’s communicating. School needs to involve Ed psych and make a referral to CAMHS. He is entitled to a full time education - the part time table is illegal and you don’t have to agree with it. If they don’t have the resources to support him in school then they (or you) should apply for an EHCP needs assessment with a view to getting an EHCP and additional support.
In some ways, although I appreciate it may not feel like it right now, you are in a stronger position with the behaviour being seen at school and not home as it means school can’t deny it and you are more likely to be taken seriously. I had the opposite with a child who was violent and challenging at home and then perfectly behaved at school. School were adamant he was fine and implied my parenting was at fault. It’s taken nearly 4 years to establish that he’s autistic with anxiety and OCD and can’t cope with school but masks all day and then explodes at home...I’m sure if he’d been exploding at school they’d have done something about it much sooner.
Good luck

backachesucks · 28/04/2021 21:36

This is almost identical to my son. He was 7, no issues at school and suddenly, the wheels fell off and he just couldn't cope at school. He was ripping work, flinging furniture, hitting everyone. Total meltdowns and complete shame. Excluded regularly and isolated most of the time 'to keep him safe'. Generally fine at home although the worse school got the more sad and withdrawn he was at home.

Relationship with school broke down so much as they wouldn't believe he was fine at home, decided he had anger and behavioural issues that were due to many things that weren't true and didn't believe what we said.

He was referred to SO many agencies and it took SO long. In the end, we refused to send him to school as it was such an unsafe environment for him and that level of distress which was manifesting in extreme behaviour (the only way to communicate) was awful for him. He was at home for a year which turned things around as we got all the diagnosis done and reset his mental health.

He was autistic, profoundly gifted, major sensory processing disorder with significant mental health problems as a result of how he wasn't having his needs met in school.

Now he's 11 and goes to an amazing autism school where he gets daily therapy, an education which is tailored to his needs and properly trained, understanding teachers, a solid friendship group, a tribe of people like him. He hasn't had a physical meltdown since we removed him from MS school. He's happy, thriving and we have a normal happy home life. You will get there.

Grimbelina · 28/04/2021 21:43

Look into ASD with PDA traits. You mention anxiety and this is at the core of the sometimes very disruptive behaviours in that profile. The PDA society are incredibly helpful. Could you afford a private assessment? Sadly the waiting lists are sometimes years long....

It is also very common for these children to cope/mask until the last few years of primary/secondary transition and then they just fall apart (or explode).

It's great that he is doing so well at home with you and you must hold onto that.

Puntastic · 28/04/2021 21:47

The only kid I've encountered with this behaviour was a victim of abuse. Do you think your son would tell you if something was seriously amiss?

Phineyj · 01/05/2021 12:34

We have a child of similar age but we have the problems at home and not at school. She got a diagnosis of ADHD and ASD with PDA last October. School have been pretty good, but the most helpful thing I did (other than read Ross Greene's book) was join a Facebook group for parents I found via the PDA Society's website. It's been a fantastic source of help, advice and ideas.

Phineyj · 01/05/2021 12:36

You need moral support and empathy for you as sadly, you will get plenty of judgement from the ignorant (which includes quite a few professionals).

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