Any advice on 2 children at 2 different primaries - Unhappy with school DS is at in reception

[mumof2boyslondon]

My older DS is 5, currently in reception class at a catholic school which we were happy with when we first moved to the area. My son hasn't made many friends there but has made one BEST friend whom he loves (I have built up a great friendship with the mum now too and we will always ensure to keep in touch for the sake of the kids etc so that wont be a problem) The school seems to be stuck in the dark ages and just does not have much available to the children in terms of extra curricular etc.
I began looking into other non faith schools in the area, and i have been blown away by how much they have to offer in comparison to our school. I am KICKING myself for not considering a non faith school when looking at schools for my DS as had i known this i definitely would have tried to get him into a better one.
I have now applied to two seperate schools in the area for him, both oversubscribed.
My question is, now, with this in mind - my youngest DS is 3 currently in the nursery connected to my older DS school. I will be making his application for Reception 2022 this year and i of course want to put down the other schools on his application with a view to evenutally getting my older DS in via the waiting list. Problem being what if that never happens?! What if i get my youngest into a different school and then my oldest is stuck at the original school for years? Has anyone any experience of something like this? I am hopeful that with my youngest in the school, then my oldest would be bumped up the waiting list due to the 'sibling criteria' which is number 2 on the admissions criteria of both schools. But can i rely on that? As they are both oversubscribed schools is there a chance that no children will ever leave. I would feel so guilty if this were to happen and i really dont know what to do for the best.
It should also be mentioned that i have spoken to the children about possibly moving to different schools and they are both so excited about it, mainly DS 5 - he would be so dissapointed if my youngest went to a new school and he didnt.

ANY advice is welcome please!! Thank you

I don't think you can judge on extra-curriculars at the moment. I don't know any primary schools that are offering any extra curricular activities other than wraparound care at the moment because of Covid and not being able to mix class bubbles.

The friendships made in Reception are often not indicative of how they will socialise further up the school.

If you had issues with bullying or the quality of learning I would say move but it seems like you are choosing quite a disruptive option on the basis of things that may change by next year.

Is it even practical op? What's the start and finish times? Distance between them?

What exactly do you mean by ‘extra curricular’? What do the other schools offer that yours doesn’t?

I didn’t want to have to go into too much detail and explain other things as I don’t need advice on that part - I know the right thing is to move them based on various things that I’d rather not go into on a forum and bore everyone with. Extra curricular is an umberella term I am using for the facilities the school have, the small outdoor area, the limited activities. The tiny classroom, the lack of tech and modern facilities available at nearby newer schools.
Practicality is not my issue.
I am asking for advice on the waiting list front and what happens in terms of appealing if you have two children at different schools. Thanks

I am asking for advice on the waiting list front and what happens in terms of appealing if you have two children at different schools having your younger son at one school is not going to guarantee your older child a place. You need to call and ask what the waiting list is like and if they apply the same criteria. It might put you higher, but that's only helpful if someone leaves. So also ask what the likelihood is.

Yes this is my worry, someone might never leave. I suppose I know the answer I was just hoping to hear some stories of people who may have been in this situation and what the outcome was for them. Thank you for taking the time to responsd

It will help bump your older son up the waiting list but you cannot appeal based on having 2 children at different schools especially not in KS1 with class size limits.

Movement on waiting lists depends a lot on the area you live in. We have loads of people come and go where I live in the suburbs of a university town but where my dsis lives in a rural village it never happens. You'd have to call the schools and see what the chances are.

It might be worth speaking to the Head Teachers of the school to find out where your DS is on the waiting list. This might help you make a decision. The sibling rule tends to be for younger children following on behind their siblings

You stand very little chance of winning an Appeal while your child is still in KS1.

I have just been in the almost exact same position with my youngest 2 although it was die to the lack of wrap around care after being let down that's been my problem. I've only just, today, sorted it all out and I totally understand your dilemma.

What I did is call the schools I was interested in and asked them about waiting lists. How long were they and how likely was it that a space came available? They both said there wasn't currently a waiting list but no spaces available to start yet. So I applied for both schools as a mid year transfer and DD was no.1 on their waiting lists. I applied for youngest (age 3) reception 2021 place based on which school I guessed might have a place for DD first (I was wrong!). It's not a major issue because I can email admissions and amend his application now I know she is starting at the new school.

Call the schools and find out what they think is likely to happen with their waiting lists/times. Then you'll have a slightly better idea of what to do next

You need to look very carefully at the admission arrangements for the schools that are your preference. They will both probably have a sibling admission criteria but you need to check whether this only applies to younger siblings or does allow the sibling criteria for older siblings.
If it does allow older siblings then yes it will move you up the waiting list which is set up using the admission criteria for entry in reception. The problem that you need to establish is how much movement there is in the school. In some schools there is plenty of movement so the waiting list will move with time but there are also schools that I know where there has been no movement at all from reception year to year 6. You could ask the schools to give you an indication of what the movement is each year.
The other big issue for you is that there is no guarantee that your youngest will get a place at any school. You need to check out very carefully the figures that are available from each school on how far away the last placed pupil was away from the school. Do not make the assumption that you will get a place for your youngest

That’s really interesting @eddiemairswife I was not aware you have less chance with KS1 but makes sense I suppose.

Thanks @CovoidOfAllHumanity I do believe there is quite a bit of movement in my area, I know 4 children have already left my older DS reception class this year to go onto other schools so that seems a lot to me? However I’m not sure of the movement in the other schools. I will speak to the headteacher and get a rough idea on the likelihood as you’ve all suggested thank you

We took this gamble when we applied for DD's reception place at a different school this September. The year 1 class was full, we applied to go on the wait list for DS. A space unexpectedly came up and DS will be starting after Easter so assuming DD gets a space on Friday (which she should) it's actually all worked out. There were several kids on the wait list, we got in based on distance. At the point we made the decision to apply for a different school for DD, friends with older children reassured me that no class remains unchanged for years even in rural villages - there are always people moving around. We would, like you, have gone to the top of the waiting list in September once DD started and I was told we'd have a chance of getting a place on appeal for DS in year 3 once infant class size limits don't apply.

We'd got as far as planning childcare based on them going to 2 different schools. I know you said practicalities aren't you concern, but a few months away from potentially having to deal with them for real, they were starting to feel a bit overwhelming. The main logistics problems for us were going to be the need to be in 2 different places simultaneously at pick up (not drop off for us) and some inset days differing so making leave planning worse. Other potential issues to check for include conflicting school events like nativities, assuming they are allowed again...

I’m glad you have finally got it all sorted @uhtredsonofuhtred1.

@admission I suppose I am assuming that my youngest would get his first choice but that’s also very true imagine he didn’t. Another stress to throw in the mix as that was my fallback!
I thought a ‘sibling in the school’ criteria just meant any order thank you for the advice I’m going straight to check now if it mentions ‘younger’ and I may have missed it.

With regards to checking the figures for how far away the last placed students were - that would be great information but for all my fine tooth combing I haven’t been able to come across any information like this at the schools I’m looking at. Is there a separate website that gives this sort of information that you know of? That would be most helpful if you know of one please

@Duckchick that’s really great to hear I’m so pleased it’s all looking like it’s gone the right way for you. Also I didn’t realise that after year 3 infant class size limits don’t apply. Surely then if we were still on a waiting list for DS then then I could
appeal and hope they would give him a place.
I totally get what your saying about the inconvenience and your right - at the moment I am saying it’s not a problem but of course there will be crossover days where it most definitely will be and the thought of it going on for years as opposed to months is my worry!

Each local authority website has a school admissions section. In this section you should find the admissions criteria for all schools, and also the distances for last year’s admissions.
I’ve attached a copy of one LAs document and under each school it states the furthest distance from school where a child was admitted last year.
www.wigan.gov.uk/Docs/PDF/Resident/Education/Schools/Admissions/Primary-Booklet-Part-2.pdf

In our area all the over subscribed schools end up with spaces in KS2 as kids move or go private at Yr3-6
So siblings often join once younger child is in reception

@firedog that’s actually something I hadn’t considered. I im in central London so I imagine this would also be the case for the schools hear. Worst scenario, If DS was on the waiting list until that time - Year 3 seems like such a bigger transition to move to a new school than in reception. I have some serious thinking to do before deciding what school to put as my younger child’s first choice! Thanks for all your responses

It's a common time to move schools at Yr3. Plenty leave state at 8 to go to preps. Others also move away in year 1 upwards. People move. People leave the city etc. As a sibling, your older one would be no1 on wait list.
A quick call to the new school would help understand how transient the school is.

We have the same as @firedog. There is generally no movement in infants and then a few dropping off for prep schools for year 3 although last year there was no y3 movement and a few disappointed parents on the waiting list who had counted on it. That might just have been the pandemic reducing private school demand though.

I know someone who did this in London and it worked for them. The oldest kid moved to the same school as the youngest within a couple of terms. There is generally a lot of movement in London schools so the waiting list should move. I would not rely on an appeal at KS2 though.