When do prep schools out kids in sets

[Rainbows18]

My daughter in reception in a coed school but seems to be finding most of the english and maths too easy. The teacher does give 1-2 kids challenges but all the teaching is focused on the main level. I feel my daughter isn’t as an engaged she would usually be in her learning. Just wondering what everyone else has experienced with how prep schools teach and manage the advanced children, what ages do they set children for core subjects and what happens in the everyday teaching. Thanks in advance for the advise.

It depends entirely on the individual school and the best thing you can do is give the teacher some feedback on why you think your DD is finding it easy and ask what to expect in coming weeks

@AnotherNewt - thanks so much. That’s really helpful advise; I will speak to the teacher and try and get some feedback.

I went to a prep school back in the 2000s and was setted from y5. Too young in my opinion. My second school was a GDST girls school and we were setted only in maths and from y9. No other setting ever.

At my daughter’s school they put them in separate ‘set’ tables from Year 2.

Separate classes from Year 4.

This is for Maths only.

Reception age children should be learning mostly through play. Lots of really important skills at this age are learnt not through formal education and setting should not even be thought about in EYFS.
Is the school not play based in reception?

As BrokenBrit said, reception focuses on learning through play and should absolutely not have sets. I'd have reservations about any school that would set in the eyfs.

DD is in a state school and they have ability groups for phonics. It is a 3 form entry so easier to manage. The kids don't know it is ability based. Doing the home learning, the maths was initially way too easy. It has got harder (was one more/less numbers under 10 and now is adding/subtraction up to 20). DD still finds it easy enough but makes mistakes so obviously benefits from the repetition.

Sets are generally frowned upon as only benefitting the top 10% but I think, particularly in maths, it is pretty tedious if it is too easy. It is easier IMO to extend other subjects e.g. phonics, literacy, by getting them to write more. I guess the maths learning can be extended e.g. to higher numbers.

Her day at school is still mostly play based and she learns plenty from her classmates about sharing, negotiating etc. Personally I don't see that is impacted by going to a different classroom for 20 mins a day for more targeted phonics.

FWIW DDs school with phonics 'sets' got outstanding in all areas in it's Ofsted 12m ago. It's a great school and we are very happy with it even though it has 'sets'.

Year 3 in my experience. The ability range is so huge in Reception as kids get off the starting blocks at vastly different speeds. It starts to even out a bit in Year 1 and 2. By Year 3 it is clearer who is really advanced etc.

Our state primary certainly had them in groups from yr 2 in maths. Our gdst prep school is not streaming our child in maths in yr 5 or 6 and she is bored and losing interest so we are moving her to another school. Most prep schools seem to stream maths from yr 5. Our son's prep is differentiating work in yr 3.

Thank you everyone for your thoughts and suggestions. Her school is very play based but I guess more teacher focused currently due to distant learning. I agree to soon to our children in Sets in reception so long as they do keep the children that have grasped the taught concepts still challenged.
I do agree English / phonics is easy to be taught within one group but challenge / build on those that have grasped the basics. Problem is for maths, for example ; they did did subtraction all week up to 20 and she was fully confident with this so found the lessons v dull and began to lose interest. I just want to ensure she is kept stimulated as worried will effect her enthusiasm for learning as generally very curious and loves being challenged. How long do you think I should preserver with same school before considering more ‘academic’ school?

Our state primary set for numeracy and literacy from Reception. (My knowledge comes from being a parent helper)
Phonics and writing divided into 2 sets and a separate set for the one child who could read chapter books.
Numeracy was 2 sets and a separate set for the child who was further ahead and could do column addition.

From year 1 kids were sat on tables with work differentiated into 3 levels of difficulty. The child who was miles ahead got a bursary to a private school)

Sounds like a really outstanding school as really thought through @marshmallowfluffy
Do you think it’s reasonable I ask the teacher how the class is set up / taught as I don’t want to seem too pushy 🤨

Depends on the school. In my prep school, never, as it’s one form entry so not possible!

I wouldn’t go making any decisions to change to a more academic school based on challenge provided during remote learning. I usually differentiate my maths lessons at least 3 ways, and further within the lesson if necessary, but with remote teaching it’s nearly impossible to know how each child is doing, how much help they’ve had etc. I’d be gutted if a parent pulled their child out of my school based on the maths lessons I’m offering at the moment. Definitely mention to the teacher if you think the work is too easy but I’d hold off considering other schools til there back in the classroom at least.

As an aside, setting is very much goin out of fashion at primary level, mostly because most of the research suggests it doesn’t benefit many children (the very top probably it does) but has negative consequences for lots of others. The overall effect is probably negative. Preps may keep it I think, as it’s popular with parents of bright kids, but all the states I know which used to set now teach mixed ability.

We pulled our daughter out of a school that didn't differentiate the work until year 5. She is one of the younger ones (and not that switched on anyway) and we found she was not learning anything as the level progressed too quickly for her.

Interestingly, her year lost almost half their initial intake for similar reasons, about half of them because their children weren't being pushed and the other half as it was going too quickly for them.

You're generally going to have different ability levels in any primary school and you have to cater to a child's level.

In a prep it’s normally from age 8. Y3. But it depends on the school and what they are aiming for.

Schools should give you clear guidance as to how they teach. Maths teaching should move children on to greater depth. Therefore they must have a curriculum that challenges and not just in phonics. Maths needs greater depth too.

YR is early to ask for this and one week of practice for subtraction isn’t the worst situation ever. You can find more challenging work if you like. You can ask the teacher to supply more challenging work. A dialogue with a teacher is never wasted but ask for advice regarding greater depth in the topic. Don’t mention boredom!

I have two DC in two different prep schools.

DC1 was formally in sets from Y3 although some extension was offered to small groups earlier.

DC2 is only in Y2. They're not officially in sets and there are no smaller groups either but for both English and maths some children are getting harder worksheets, spellings etc

Neither the children nor the parents are told anything but the children do work it out!!

Phonics is tough to differentiate whole class teaching and deepen an already known sound. My DC's class finds the sound from clues, finds objects with the sound, makes the letters with something other than writing and then writes the sound, with extra challenges being write words for the sound and then use the words in a sentence. The only differentiation possible is adding sentences as an "extra" challenge.

Early maths topics are tough to deepen too as they're quite limited until you are "allowed" beyond 10 or 30. I'm happy with lots of consolidation and practice to build speed and confidence, and something with a mix of + and - would be good to instill a habit of checking/reading the question properly.

Fortunately my DC is only really ahead in fine motor so it's easy for her to stretch herself with drawing tasks which are more open ended. She gets maths easily but is still horrified by making mistakes so we're working on confidence, consolidation and making mistakes not a big deal (while encouraging careful reading of the question).

Prep schools around here have extension groups for the more advanced and support groups for those that need to catch up from reception. Formal setting is only in math and only from circa year 4. Most academic prep schools do whole class teaching that is about 1 year in advance of the national curriculum. How they challenge the most able within their intake is very dependent on the school and some are much better at it that others but as reception is mostly play based it’s a fairly gentle year in every school.

Thank you everyone for all the useful insight and tips. I will discuss with the teacher ways I can challenge and add depth to the subject to see if I can get further ideas. I do agree it’s important they consolidate everything at this stage. Does any one have any idea on what happens in a GDST prep school at this level as I am wondering she would be challenged a lot more in comparison.

You need to look at the outcomes and destinations of DC at the school, Do they go on to academic schools or not. If they do, then I would think the school knows what it is doing. It is a shame to worry about challenge quite so early. Ask for ideas on how to consolidate work and add depth. DDs friend who went to Cambridge to do maths from a state school just got on with it.

About a year ahead is just ridiculous. Children in prep schools can be behind and never get near a university. It is not a race in prep school but parents have to believe they are getting more and have brighter DC. No point rushing if they do not grasp the concepts.

In DS's non-selective prep they set (as in actual different classes) for maths in Y6, then they have further sets in Y7&8. This is because the children that want to go for academic scholarships need to prep for different entrance tests.

There is a big difference between streaming, setting and in-class differentiation ('groups'). Research shows (please don't ask me for a link, I really can't be bothered to wade through papers) that one of the things that makes the biggest difference to rate of progress is the teacher's expectations. If teachers have low expectations of a lower set, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Personally, I think mixed ability with 'teaching to the top' and differentiated support where needed gets the best results out of everybody.

@PresentingPercy teaching 1 year ahead of the national curriculum on average is essentially reaching level 5 in old money terms. The intake at a selective / academic prep school is definitely capable of that and it’s pretty standard in this part of London.

It’s early days for a large amount of differentiation surely. Reception is as much about socialisation and learning to be in a classroom as it is formal learning. I’d keep an eye on it. At my child’s independent school there was obvious differentiation from P2 (I.e year 1 in England). Later on children who were specially gifted or considered as having extra potential went to ‘support for learning’ alongside the children who needed extra support due to dyslexia etc. They got extra maths challenges etc. This was great as it stopped any ‘stigma’. This was in addition to differentiation and extension work in ordinary ‘all class’ activity.

My DD attended an academic prep. The top scholarship set no doubt raced ahead. Others didn’t. Fairly standard but obviously some subjects were brilliant and the curriculum was wider, eg geography, history, art etc. Thx top set got scholarships to Wycombe Abbey, CLC, Benendon etc. The others were no more intelligent or working at a more advanced level than the dc in the state schools and not as advanced as many in local grammars. The idea the privately educated are all ahead is not true.