Counting on fingers

[Nomaigai]

How common is it for a child in year 5 to still need to count on fingers for basic sums (eg 7+5)? I'm trying to understand whether I'm dealing with a child who just isn't that good at maths or if it might be worth an assessment for discalculia. She struggles with arithmetic but seems to grasp concepts quickly - for example she can do long multiplication easily but will add it up wrong at the end or get 46 wrong. She's still struggling to grasp times tables as well and has to calculate even basic ones (eg 73).

We're a very mathematical family so I don't know what is 'normal'. However, I struggle with basic maths and have an A at further maths and DB is a mathematician who has been known to do x2 on a calculator. I don't know if it's just wishful thinking on my part though and I want to be fair in my expectations of her.

Yes, that is normal.

I wouldn’t of thought it was normal, sorry. Have you discussed this with their teacher?

Hi OP, saw the title of your post and had to comment. I remember being really annoyed when my daughter, aged 8 or 9, was told that she mustn't use her fingers to count. I was tempted (I didn't) to tell her teacher that I have a maths A level grade A, finance degree and am a chartered accountant and I still use my fingers to count. My daughter passed the eleven plus and has an A* at GCSE, so I honestly wouldn't worry at all.

@SendHelp30

I wouldn’t of thought it was normal, sorry. Have you discussed this with their teacher?

I've very little contact with teachers at the moment and am running out of trust in the school for multiple reasons. That probably isn't fair and this particular teacher hasn't really done anything wrong. I may try emailing her again. So far I've gotten the distinct impression they don't really care - she's hitting targets.

I'm not in the UK and there has been a lot of distance learning so far meaning that I'm not sure her teacher would know either way.

It’s not unusual for children - or even adults - to use fingers to count.
She needs to practice her times tables every day orally as it sounds like she’s not embedded them yet. Also number bonds, so if she’s doing 27 + 13 she will automatically see 7+3 = 10 so know the answer ends in 0. Use lockdown time to keep practicing these basic skills.

My 16yo still uses her fingers to count, and also struggles with time tables (and telling time, and left v right). She has some processing difficulties and can't hold things well in her head so mental maths is difficult.

However, before lockdown hit she was all set to take the Higher tier paper for her GCSE maths.

When my elder DD did y6 SATs we had to take the view that any marks gained on the mental maths paper were bonus marks as she couldn't do it in the time. Come GCSEs she missed an A by only a few marks.

I would:

• play board games with two dice so she gets used to adding at least numbers 6 and under.
• make sure she knows the fingers trick for the 9x table
• keep plugging away at times tables, you can get away without them, but it makes secondary school maths so much easier if you've got them sorted
• don't worry so much about instant recall as counting up to get there fast (3,6,9,12...)

I wouldn’t of thought it was normal, sorry. Have you discussed this with their teacher?

OP, you can ignore this advice. Promise! Its absolutely normal and not something to worry about.

Thanks everyone. Really appreciate the prompt responses!

Year 5 they should really know their number bonds shouldn't they?
Maybe try Snap (they have to add to 10 for a Snap, my not very able Year 2 can do this without fingers but uses them for other bonds, then move on to other bonds), dice as others have said.

Gawd sorry. I read too quickly and thought the child was 5 years old.

By the end of year 5 a child should know all their times tables (up to 12x12) with near instant recall and be able to quickly mentally add 2 digit numbers.

Counting on fingers out of habit it is not super unusual but a year 5 child should not rely on it for simple addition like your 7+5 example. So it's ok if she likes to do it but if her hands were full and you asked her 6+5 she should still be able to answer.

That is not to say your DD has a diagnosable condition or won't catch up quickly. But she needs to cement her times tables mental recall and learn her number bonds properly. Once that is in place a lot else will follow.

She should have rote-learned the number facts to 10+10 at least by now. It's much faster and more accurate if they can do that- teach her it like you would a times table.

Has she always done this or is it new? DD is year 5 and has regressed a lot since March. I've started doing times tables with her most days as she'd seemed to forgotten them and was using fingers to work out some of them. She seems to be improving

I always counted on my fingers, then I did teacher training and learnt about number bonds. I have loved teaching my ds this way, it gives them good number sense. After getting really confident with number bonds, she would be able to say "I know 7+5 = 12 because 7+3 =10 and 5 is 2 more than 3. 10 +2=12. Haha typing that, it does seem using fingers is easier!

I'm 56 and sometimes count on, on my fingers (I have to work out how old young children are in months ).

However I would expect a child in Yr 5 to 'know' number bonds. Children learn them in infants school.

I think counting on fingers is fine and I've never understood this thing about trying to prevent at primary school age when it is clearly a helpful tool. However, if he absolutely has to do that in order to do one digit calculations, I would probe further. I was always very good at maths but struggled and still do with metal maths. I am absolutely reliant on counting on fingers or writing it down. My DC are the same. DS was actually diagnosed with dyscalculia, which is a maths version of dyslexia. One of the early signs is a difficulty in doing simple number estimates. So for example if I held up 8 fingers, he would have to count them probably twice. He can't just see numbers. He also struggles with simple number bonds, times tables and telling the time. But he can get the concepts behind maths. It may be there is some number difficulty or 'blindness' with your DD, but she might still be great at other aspects of maths. Or it might be that she just does it for security and habit and it is absolutely fine!

Thanks everyone she does know her number bonds to 10 and 20. It's the single digit numbers that aren't the number bonds she struggles with. She couldn't do 7x2 this morning but happily went on to do long multiplication and the extension activity for the most difficult maths task.

@ilovesushi that's what's worrying me a bit. She can't tell the time either but I just tested her on fingers and I would say she's neither great nor terrible. I do worry I'm just looking for an excuse though!

@TeenPlusTwenties her brother has processing issues, so that's interesting.

@spaceghetto that is still how I work out things like 8+4 i.e that it's 10+2. Maybe this is just more common than I think!

I've had a response from the teacher but it's basically a holder as the teacher doesn't know get enough to comment (long story and Covid related).

Thanks everyone again for the tips including those I haven't tagged. All appreciated

Sounds like number bonds snap would work well then!