St Leonards or Dundee High School

[moominmagda]

We're moving to Scotland next year and are trying to decide on a school for our 6-year old daughter (she's currently in a small village school in Cornwall).

So far we've shortlisted two schools on the east coast: St Leonards in St Andrews and High School of Dundee - has anyone got experience of either? We'll move close to whatever school we choose so no boarding.

Hi Moomin, I just wanted to let you know there is a Scotsnet section so if you ask to move your post you will get a lot more local traffic. I live in Scotland but sadly have no inside knowledge of either school but there will be others on the Scotsnet board who probably will have.

Thank you Motherstongue, I will try and move the post.

Would counsel you strongly against St Leonards - we had a terrible experience at the junior school which has undergone leadership changes and not for the better. There is a real difference in academic standards to what you are probably used to at independent schools elsewhere and the lack of discipline is shocking. Teaching staff generally unimpressive with a couple of exceptions (who interestingly are not in leadership positions) & a distinct lack of will to do a good job & actively respond to feedback. The senior school is supposed to be better but that’s four years of a poor experience until then. Based on our experience go for Dundee High.

That's really good to know, thank you @Tweetster

The two schools you’ve shortlisted are chalk and cheese. One’s inner city; the other seaside town. One follows the Scottish curriculum; the other’s approach is more international. Both have had leadership changes recently, the High School at senior level and St Ls at junior. Am sure both schools will have benefited as a result of the changes. Our children thrived at St Leonards from primary years onwards. Great to be by the sea, beach school, access to wide open spaces. 99 per cent of the children go on to St Leonards middle years and senior school from junior. The academic credentials are very impressive. Being in St Andrews would probably mean a more similar lifestyle and ethos as yours in Cornwall - for your little one less of a culture shock! You can judge when you call up each school and chat with each. Good luck!

That's great advice, so helpful, thank you @mumonthebeach

I recommend St Leonards @moominmagda. The teachers are great all the way through and they really care. Happy, smiling kids. After Cornwall, you might find the east coast weather a bit nippy though, until you get used to it

Thanks so much @StAndreanne.
To be honest, Cornish weather is far from perfect. All the TV documentaries seem to be showing this part of the world on sunny days only. We live in the wettest part, by Bodmin Moor, and it's very wet and windy. According to the MetOffice we get double the amount of rain here than you guys do up in St Andrews. I think we'll be okay with nippy as long as we can escape this awful rain :)

Parents who had/have kids at St Leonards, where do you live?

How easy would a commute from somewhere like Cupar be?

@moominmagda Very easy commute: 20-minutes-ish. Cupar is one of the school's daily bus routes. Quite a number of families live there

Taybridgebead area is also an easy commute to St Andrews or Dundee High for that matter. So you have Tayport, Newport-on-Tay, Wormit all decent size villages with lovely communities and easy access to both Dundee and St Andrews

I can recommend St Leonards - the campus is beautiful with plenty of space and the junior school has 'beach school' where the kids are outside from the environment around them - great even pre-covid. My kids joined later in the junior school so can't speak directly about the v early years but many of their friends have been there throughout (which is a recommendation of sorts!). We like that it's quite an international community (for North East Fife anyway!) and the IB curriculum.

As others have said, High School of Dundee is a different proposition as a much larger school in a city centre, following the Scottish curriculum.

Nothing to offer- just bloomin love that corner of Scotland!!

Thanks for your help everyone.

We're looking at a house in Anstruther - anyone knows the area? It looks nice (on Street View anyway) and I think there's a school bus from the village. Any inside knowledge?

I really like Anstruther. It and the harbour areas there and in Crail, St Monans, Pittenweem etc all a little bit Cornish in feel actually... ! Anstruther has a harbour, cafes, quite a few shops and a big-ish Co-op on outskirts. Very buzzy in summer. People go on boat trips from the harbour across the water to the Isle of May/Puffin Island. Not totally sure but Anstruther is almost certainly on the school's bus route. Quite a few St L families live there and the other villages in the East Neuk.

Thank you @StAndreanne! Sounds great, we'll book a viewing. Can't say I am looking forward to the drive

Hello
We are also moving up to St Andrews this summer. If Tweetster is still reading, would you be able to provide more detail on your dissatisfaction with the school. Our children are used to being in classes of 20-30 kids. We are keen for them to be in an environment that challenges them, expects good behaviour and where they are not covered in cotton wool if you like! Good teaching too of course. We visited the school pre covid when one of the boarding house heads was acting as deputy head of the junior school. She came across very well but has since returned to the boarding role as I understand it. If anyone can shed further light on the school as a whole that would be great.

@Ladolcevida we have been at three independent schools in Scotland with St L being our third. I can honestly say hands down this has been our best experience, pastorally and academically. I have experience in the Junior, middle and senior. The outcome most importantly is happy thriving kids. Very happy to chat more. The location is simply stunning and the curriculum is truly enhanced by this, I would choose a beach location over a city landscape anytime!

Hello - I have experience of both schools particularly St Leonards.

I completely agree with and confirm what @Tweetster has said above. St Leonards isn’t the school you think it is once you scratch the surface. Be very careful.

Note also the school clearly reads these threads and I’d be confident at least one reply (and I actually think two replies) above are from a staff member, so I won’t go into much more detail publicly on the various issues. If you read past posts on St Leonards you can recognise this happening on all of them, they’re all hijacked by staff!

What I would say is compare St Leonards to another independent school not the local state schools. It doesn’t have to be the High School of Dundee, just any independent school in Scotland. It just doesn’t stand up to other independent schools. Strip away the green grass and there is little substance there. Really question what you’re paying for, where your fees are going. There are bullying issues in the junior years and some questionable parent behaviour too!

Another real issue with St Leonards is the sport, for senior school especially, the facilities on site are non existent. This real lack of facilities is fudged by utilising the university facilities. For a sporty child the facilities at the High School of Dundee are truly amazing, as you would expect from any flourishing independent school.

In terms of changes of leadership - an update on above. The Head of St Leonards has now retired, my understanding is that through a recent re structure there is no head of junior years. A new head of the whole school starts in time for the next academic year 21/22. Regarding the person you met returning to the boarding roll - read into that what you will.

The High School of Dundee did have a new Head over a year ago now, she was an internal appointment so hit the ground running and it is worth saying she is an exceptional person of real note. The High school doesn’t have acres of green grass, it does have really exceptional teachers and very high quality classroom resources/ teaching materials. It’s very easy to see where your fees are being spent, and all the children are extremely happy, despite the lack of the all important grass!?! It’s organised and well structured, the children know exactly what’s expected of them. Theres a real sense of community.

There’s really no comparison between the two, but a lot of people don’t go and see the High School of Dundee because of the journey or the lack of green space. In my opinion it’s more than worth the journey, it’s really not that far!

I hope your move to St Andrews goes smoothly. It is a wonderful place to live and bring up children. What it lacks in school choice it makes up for in sand and sea!

If you do especially want an independent education it is worth considering locating yourself nearer to Perth or Edinburgh. They both have a wider range of independent schools to choose from. You can live in north Fife and travel easily to Perth or south Fife near the bridges and commute into Edinburgh. Most of the schools run buses from these areas. There is a High School of Dundee bus from St Andrews now we’re on to the subject!!

@Ladolcevida sorry I meant to tag you into my post above. I’m not a prolific mumsnetter so my skills are a little lacking!

My DDs went to St Leonards and loved it but it was while ago now and I think it has changed a bit. My niece is there at the moment and she is doing very well. She lives further away than Cupar but there are buses which come from most parts of Fife. The state high schools in St Andrews and the East Neuk (Madras and Waid) are both good schools too. I know lots of pupils who moved from St Leonards to Madras at 6th form level so they could do Highers instead of the IB. Mixing between the schools happens a lot.

Hello again - our dissatisfaction was with the leadership and some of the teaching at the junior school. We moved up from an independent school in the South and quickly realised that the promised individual response to our children was non existent. We experienced some low level bullying but heard of other shocking bullying issues from both boys and girls which were just not dealt with. You go in and they thank you for raising the issues but nothing actually changes or happens. The choice therefore is to put up or leave but given the lack of local competition that’s not really a choice for a lot of parents. I was also told by some parents that there is a real problem of ‘influential’ local families and some staff friendships which was perceived as a clear conflict of interest when it comes to tackling problematic behaviour. The teaching staff are mixed, but a significant proportion are frankly coasting, my child had never experienced teachers shouting so much. Some of the promotions made are inexplicable and demonstrate a disconnect between what the Head really knows about the staff at the junior school. Our child also witnessed some pretty shocking racist bullying directed at other children. That speaks volumes about some of the demographic at the school. It was frankly reminiscent of the 1970s and not what I want my children to be exposed to in this day and age. Furthermore, there really isn’t that much of an international environment at all as I think most of that is found in the boarding element and hence you don’t meet the parents. The junior school is largely local & don’t forget the kids of the local army base:)

I really hope the new Head sorts out the Junior School and connects the dots on those families that have pulled their children out but I’m not that confident.

If I were you I’d live in Edinburgh as there is a bigger and better pool of schools to choose from and it’s a more vibrant and diverse place to live. St Andrews proper is dominated by students and retired couples. Our experience was that most families live further out and the reality is that you don’t see them without having to make a big effort. We were just lucky that we could move away.

Hope that helps.

Sorry forgot to tag you, my reply is below.

Sorry forgot to tag - reply below. To all of you looking at Cupar & Anstruther etc Agree these are in a stunning location but visit off season and take into account some of these places are very small & there is literally nothing to do in the winter. If you’re used to living in the middle of nowhere that’s great but if you’re used to going out for coffee & shopping etc it’s 1 and a half hour drive to Edinburgh. It’s a completely different way of life so please do your research and think long and hard about whether this fits your lifestyle. It’s great for some but not for everyone.