Concerns about year 2 child

[Rudolphian]

I had a thread previously where I said my daughter just wouldn't write.
We recently had parents evening and i expressed my concerns.
The teacher agreed that for the amount of time she is given they are surprised by how little she has actually put on the paper. She said they dont tell her off oor anything but find it really surprising.
I expressed my concerns that she just seems to be going through the months and nothing much seems to be done. And I asked how long do we wait before we say that thereay actually be a problem.
She has no problems with her numeracy.
Her reading is good.
It's just her spelling. Writing is much better. But we have worked an this so much at home. If i hadn't it would be completely illegible. We try and do a little bit of handwriting practice everyday. Any fine motor activities I give her she just stops and does something else after a minute or so.
At the end of the parents evening review they said they thought the main issue was that she was just a bit slow and they would work with her over the next two weeks to see if they could give her a challenge and stickers if she could write a bit more. And maybe she would get a certificate.
They also said they would get the senco to review her. And that we I should followup the week before Christmas.
Today my husband picked her up from school. I wasn't expecting a discussion today. He said that they were working on the plan they'd spent think there is anything wrong and that she is probably just a bit lazy. On probing he mentioned she would also be reviewed by the senco.
English isn't my husbands first language so maybe he got it wrong.
I'm not sure.
I was happy just waiting but now am concerned the word lazy was mentioned. I feel like her issues may be being brushed away. She is really well behaved and doesnt cause any problems in class. She has friends in class. She understands and comes home and tells me about what she had learned. At home when we do work ot takes a couple of minutes to complete her maths, but when it comes to English there is a block.
I dont want to be brushed away as being lazy.
Do we just wait and review in last week of Christmas and see what they say.

I'm just aware months keep going by and if there is a problem it is better if it is picked up sooner.
Also when she started this year. I think because she didnt write much they thought she couldn't read very well so was given home reading books at levels she had in reception.
She understands everything, there is an issue with her writing.
On her English homework. Ashe always asks if she can draw the answer instead of writing.
In the last couple of weeks she has had a little improvement. Previously it was almost impossible to get her to write anything at all. Now we manage to do about 3 or 4 sentences without too much upset, but she needs a lot of handholding/ support.
If in the end they say everything is ok and she is just 'lazy' what should we do. I think she needs a proper EP assessment, I'm also worried she may have dyspraxia.

6/7 years old is too young to be worried about that. It's ok. Just support, don't push it.

I wouldn't be too worried. Unless you pay privately you won't get an EP assessment at this stage at all.

Many many kids at this stage are reluctant writers. The fact she is ok in all other areas would mean I wouldn't worry.

Her writing was completely illegible. It's only with a lot of support she has writing that is now legible. I dont know how well the rest of the class write but assume it is one of the untidiest. She still gets a lot of her letters backwards. Short letters tall and tall letters short. Her spelling needs a lot of work.
When doing her English work.
She can read the homework. But just say she cant do ot.
E.g. last week. Write an example about when you have been kind. What happened and how did you feel.
She couldn't think of anything. So I said how about in school or at home. Still couldn't think.
Then I gave her examples of when she had been kind. And said pick one. Said she couldn't pick one.
Then I told her which one to write. She didnt know what to write then I had to tell her what to write. Sentence by sentence.
If I don't do this she would just go back to school with a blank homework.
I think we'll wait and see what they say in a couple of weeks. Just hoping there isn't a bubble closure in the meantime.
If we aren't getting anywhere will look into a private EP review.

She's only 6/7. I think you are expecting far too much.

Thanks for your advice.
We'll wait and see what they say.

Here is a controversial idea - your dd finds writing difficult so she avoids doing it. As she avoids it, she doesn't get better at it and this cycle continues.

She is 6. She is perhaps reluctant to do her work or does the minimum. You have the time to make her write it sentence by sentence. The teacher has 30 kids and a few minutes to spend with each one. Your dd is probably well aware of this. Keep pushing her to do her work. make it clear that she is expected to keep trying. Praise her efforts. Be positive about her progress.

I would wait to see what sendCo says and follow up on the time scales they have provided.
Provision is based on need and you don't need any formal diagnosis to get help. I am aware some Ed Ps are not visiting schools due to Covid whilst in other schools they continue to support children.
They can put some additional help in straight away if needed.
Follow up before Christmas.

She does just sound like a reluctant writer, struggling for ideas of how to write. If the issue were dyspraxia, you'd more often see a child with ideas but incapable of putting them on paper accurately.

Instead of giving her the exact sentences, could you try modelling how to write something that fits the taks, and then asking her to write her own, but tell her that it can't be exactly the same. Or give her half a sentence but she has to finish it. Then give her lots of praise for anything she does do independently.

As pp said, her reluctance will be hampering her progress unfortunately. So praise, praise, praise, but maybe a bit of tough love "you need to decide and you will stay her until you write one sentence."

I wonder if she's a perfectionist, worried about writing anything less than amazing? If this is possible, make your models a bit rubbish. She'll then see that it doesn't have to be amazing.

Good luck

I’m a teacher, with a daughter who was a very reluctant writer. Beginning of Year 1 I had my teacher hat and didn’t want to make writing bad so I didn’t pressure her, tried to make writing fun, little and often etc. Over lockdown I became seriously worried about her lack of progress. I got tougher with her, insisted she tried to write at least 2 sentences. Would let her go and play but remind her she had to do her writing by a certain time. It was tough and maybe not the right approach but slowly we got there. Might not be right for your child but tackling what she avoided was the right thing for us.

@cansu has described exactly our challenge. DD in year 2 is young and had some fine motor challenges, but has ended up in this cycle of doesn't like writing, doesn't practice, doesn't want to do it.

Her school have been really on it - and do see it as something that will hold her back as from year 3 there is more story writing/ creativity, comprehension etc. She gets lots of practice at school and they make sure she is moved if she is distracting herself.

We do lots of work on improving hand for cordination and strength so cutting, crafting, colouring etc and have had periods of writing a sentence a day in a diary (which can be a bit of a battle). We also find she likes to write on chalk boards and white boards and with different types of pen - we have an IKEA trolly with it all over n so she can help herself.

We have also paid for private OT, which we think has helped in other areas too but appreciate that this may not be an option.

Thanks for your replies.
My main concern is . If she isn't writing they think she doesnt understand or cant do it. So she wont progress in class?
E.g. they put her in a lower reading level. And I think they stream the class for english so she is getting easier work that wont really help her progress. Its difficult because the teachers won't say what group she is in. And if I ask her any questions about her work or what she did that day I just get told she cant remember. Then she will mention something random she learned about but it doesnt help me gauge how well she is doing.

The teacher may be a bit more forthcoming if you phrase your questions slightly differently. I ask things like "How far away from where he should be is DS?" or "Is the gap between where he is, and where he should be getting bigger, smaller or staying the same?" If you ask to compare her to the expectations instead of her classmates teachers might be happier.

But if she's not able to write anything independently, she should be in a lower group for English, if they have groups (many schools don't these days). She obviously needs scaffolding and support to improve her writing.

Insectday is right about asking questions about her rather than asking for comparisons. Discuss reading and writing separately too, as English in some schools is mostly about writing skills, whereas in others it's mostly about reading skills.

If there is a condition causing this it's not ok to just day she isn't writing she needs to stay in the lower set. You try and figure out if there is a reason and support them.
She understands all the concepts and can apply them verbally.
If she is allowed to give the answer verbally she can. There is no problem with her comprehension. It literally is just the act of putting it down on paper.
So I'm not sure what level of work she is given in class because she writes very little. So I assume because of this she will fall further behind, because she isn't being taught the more challenging work.

If there was something causing this and she was given the appropriate support she would be able to put her ideas onto paper.

Keep making a fuss at school until they can tell you how they’ll support her. It’s so important to try and sort this now before she gets older.

I've seen this a lot (teacher). Your little girl is resistant to doing something that she perceives she is not good at. The more you try tp push her, the more she will push back I'm afraid, until you may find that she refuses to write at all. It looks like school is taking a softer approach, not pushing her and working on all the other skills that eventually make good writers - talking, composing orally, sequencing, discussing ideas etc
It's old fashioned and a bit reductive to say that she is simply being 'lazy'. She sounds like she just doesn't want to do something she can't do as well as her peers. As a teacher, and in the kindest possible way, you need to back off and stop putting her under pressure to perform. Nobody is good at everything and everyone has different strengths. She will get there - as long as she is reading, has an imagination and can talk through ideas it will click for her eventually.

Not sure if this is helpful or not. My DS is also in Year 2 (summer born if that is of any interest) and is exactly as myothercar describes. He is a bright boy, exceeding in lots of areas but writing is not his thing. In Year 1 he realised he wasn’t as good at writing as the other children in his class so he stopped trying and started refusing to do it. We worked with school who encouraged him and praised him whenever he did a good piece of writing. Unfortunately over lockdown we struggled with homeschooling and he started to refuse to do writing and it became a huge battle. School said to not push it and they would pick it up when he was back. Starting back at school in September he struggled initially and found the transition to Year 2 difficult - he would procrastinate and not do the writing but found he would miss playtime / golden time where he would have to finish his work. He is made to redo work if it isn’t neat enough but because he has a great relationship with his teacher (who we work with on this) he has become much more resilient, knows he has to do it and will just get on with it. He isn’t the best writer in the class but gets praise tor trying his best which for us is a great approach. I would try and work with the school to see if there are any solutions e.g. using a fat pencil, having space and silence to focus on writing (my DS will often have time at a table outside the classroom, not because he’s been naughty but because it helps him), additional praise for work she does do. I would also agree with PPs who say don’t push too hard as that seems to make things worse. This year has been hard on them all and it does seem the transition from year 1 to 2 is quite large esp in light of having missed a big chunk of year 1.

Thanks for your advice I'm avoiding putting pressure on her and am trying to be as relaxed with her as much as possible. I think I'll back off further.
I think I'll have to follow up with school next week.
We've just been told they will be doing remote learning for the last week before Christmas so there isn't any chance of bubbles bursting and meaning people have to self isolate over Christmas. In this way people will be able to meet families for Christmas.
I know it's not been long but think it will be more difficult to get feedback when they move to remote learning and also want to make sure she is assessed by the senco before they break up. I dont think she's been assessed yet.

E.g. last week. Write an example about when you have been kind. What happened and how did you feel.
She couldn't think of anything. So I said how about in school or at home. Still couldn't think.
Then I gave her examples of when she had been kind. And said pick one. Said she couldn't pick one.
Then I told her which one to write. She didnt know what to write then I had to tell her what to write. Sentence by sentence.
If I don't do this she would just go back to school with a blank homework.

You say the above @Rudolphian then say:
She understands all the concepts and can apply them verbally.
If she is allowed to give the answer verbally she can. There is no problem with her comprehension. It literally is just the act of putting it down on paper.

I'm confused - if she understands verbally, then why couldn't she do that when asked about being kind?

@Rudolphian

Her writing was completely illegible. It's only with a lot of support she has writing that is now legible. I dont know how well the rest of the class write but assume it is one of the untidiest. She still gets a lot of her letters backwards. Short letters tall and tall letters short. Her spelling needs a lot of work. When doing her English work. She can read the homework. But just say she cant do ot. E.g. last week. Write an example about when you have been kind. What happened and how did you feel. She couldn't think of anything. So I said how about in school or at home. Still couldn't think. Then I gave her examples of when she had been kind. And said pick one. Said she couldn't pick one. Then I told her which one to write. She didnt know what to write then I had to tell her what to write. Sentence by sentence. If I don't do this she would just go back to school with a blank homework. I think we'll wait and see what they say in a couple of weeks. Just hoping there isn't a bubble closure in the meantime. If we aren't getting anywhere will look into a private EP review.

Secco here. It sounds to me that she’s overwhelmed with the whole writing process. She’s been away from school at a crucial point in the learning process - lots of our Y2 children are currently struggling relative to the progress they made in Reception and the start of Y1. She needs to pressure taking off her. Writing should be fun, but until you're confident with it its just a chore for many children. Take the homework example you've described. She has to first of all understand what the task is. Then she has to think of something to actually write about. She has to formulate sentences and try to remember them, remember how to spell words, how to form letters correctly, how to lay this all out on the paper. By the time she’s written the first couple of words she will have likely forgotten her sentence! There are many reasons why she’s finding this tricky, and the one that could be possible is her working memory is weak. Ask your school Senco to screen for this - its a really simple measure of how children could manage tasks. She will benefit from being given the opportunity to ‘write’ in different ways. For the task you mentioned, I’d get her to draw a picture of herself doing something kind (after you've talked about it with her) and then she could write speech bubbles, simple sentences or even just short captions for the picture. I wouldn’t expect her to write reams given her reluctance. Using writing frames to give structure, with a word bank to support vocabulary and spelling of key words, a phonics mat to help with spelling phonically plausible words, have pictures out of her favourite story books for her to write a sentence linked to the story, or copy a page from a fact book and she can add captions using post it notes.

Get her to make shopping lists, write little notes to family members, post it note reminders to put on the fridge - anything that has meaningful purpose for her.

Most of all, don't push her or even think that there’s a problem, her confidence needs building up. And dont worry!

@AyeAyeShipAhoy

*E.g. last week. Write an example about when you have been kind. What happened and how did you feel. She couldn't think of anything. So I said how about in school or at home. Still couldn't think. Then I gave her examples of when she had been kind. And said pick one. Said she couldn't pick one. Then I told her which one to write. She didnt know what to write then I had to tell her what to write. Sentence by sentence. If I don't do this she would just go back to school with a blank homework.*

You say the above @Rudolphian then say:
She understands all the concepts and can apply them verbally.
If she is allowed to give the answer verbally she can. There is no problem with her comprehension. It literally is just the act of putting it down on paper.

I'm confused - if she understands verbally, then why couldn't she do that when asked about being kind?

I don't know. When there is o chance of having to put something on paper she seems to be able to speak freely. E.g. tell me a story before bed. I'm practicing this with her help her practice getting her thoughts in order. When we have done workbooks and she only had to do a.pne work answer. E.g. what is the vern/ noun or adverb she can identify and write the answer after reading the question herself. Including prefix and suffix. E G What work in the sentences is the correct word to use between cleaner/ cleanest If it is a creative piece of writing where she has to write sentences she just seems to fall apart and say she cant do it.

I would get her a simple recording device for her to say her sentence to then playback as many times as she needs to in order for her to write it down. Something like this:
www.tts-group.co.uk/talk-time-a5-recordable-speech-bubble/1003995.html?cgid=Primary-Computing_--ICT-Speaking--Listening#
or this:
www.tts-group.co.uk/easi-speak-bluetooth-microphone/1013538.html?cgid=Primary-Computing--ICT-Speaking--_Listening#

If she is reading books in class and answering questions and showing good comprehension verbally in class then she shouldn't be in a lower reading group. If she isn't answering question or unable to like your example of being kind this would explain her being in a lower group.
At 6 years old writing skills are very much still emerging for some children. Continue to do fine motor activities to build hand strength, encourage her to draw, and of course encourage her to write a sentence or two but don't expect her to write a page.. Yet.
Disco dough is a good one on YouTube for building hand strength.
If she's self conscious about her writing being illegible she is likely to be more reluctant to write for fear of being told it is wrong. Maybe to start with you could write the sentence for her in a yellow broad marker pen then get her to write over the letters with her pencil. Then progress to you writing it and her copying underneath - always leave a line beneath each line you write so she is literally copying the letters directly under the letter you have written. If she can tell you verbally the answer take away the pressure of the writing. You write exactly what she tells you the answer is.
Unless it's a handwriting activity there is no harm in you doing this.

Thanks for all your advice.
I'll try some of the suggestions above and work further on her fine motor skills.
I'm trying to do as much as I can. But shes only 6 and exhausted after her day at school.
I dont want to just push writing her into writing every waking minute and am aware in the longer term it will probably make her hate it.

Both my dd's are similar. Took until primary 5 for them to realise she was dyslexic (masked by good reading level and still being within expected targets but that I realised much sooner than they did that it didn't match her abilities in other areas)
Dd2 who is 7 is now very similar. She's even higher standard of maths and reading so the teacher has picked up that her spelling is totally out of sync with the rest of her abilities (plus the school have learned from her sister) it's too young to diagnose anything but shes on their radar for dyslexia and getting extra support with her writing and spelling.