Can Chair of Governors be PTA Treasurer?

[TheHuntingOfTheSarky]

Does anyone know what the protocol is here? I assumed it wouldn't be possible as potential conflict of interests but would appreciate advice from those more clued-up than me.

As a governance officer I would say no the Chair of the PTA could not become the treasurer. If I had the PTA audited, I would be asking some serous questions about transparency, financials especially signing of any cheques etc, and the reporting of the financial. In my opinion I would keep the roles separate.

It's Chair of Governors who is proposing to become PTA Treasurer though, the Chair of PTA is someone separate. Though they are besties with the Chair of Governors and both in the Head's pocket. The whole thing is very dodgy.

I wouldn't expect governors to be on the PTA at all.

I think it could be ok. The main issue would be keeping the roles very separate. I guess it would depend on the individual as to whether they would be able to do this effectively. They and everyone around them would have to be very clear about roles, remits, boundaries and potential conflict of interests.

But the real question, is who in their right minds would want to do both jobs?

Financial records of PTA would / should never go to governor's. They are totally different bodies with their own, separate legal frameworks. PTA is not a committee of governors.

Givernors certainly can be members of the PTA if they are parents! That’s the key word - parents! So is the Chair of Governors a parent? If so, I’m not aware any parent can be barred from holding an honorary position with the PTA. I don’t really see that it’s a conflict of interest. The PTA is completely separate with separate funds and constitution.

The other question is, do they have the requisite skills? The PTA is probably a charity. The Treasurer is a key post for obvious reasons and the annual return to the Charities Commission and the parents must be accurate and on time.

Should the Chair of Governors not be a parent, they are nothing to do with the PTA and cannot be Treasurer. Governors and PTA are entirely separate. Hope that helps.

I was a co-opted governor and the treasurer of the PTA. There is no conflict of interests in my opinion.

I should clarify that if the chairman isn’t parent they are not normally able to be Treasurer under any constitution I’ve read. However if a constitution allows non parents to become an officer, (because no parent comes forward for example) then the parent requirement could be overridden. It’s important, therefore, to read and follow your constitution. If you don’t have one, I suggest you join a national association and get one.

Thanks everyone. We have now spoken to Parentkind and apparently there are no rules against this happening. I am very uneasy though. The last committee were basically forced out by this CoG who persuaded the Head to go along with a virtual coup.

A new (impartial) Treasurer was voted in at the AGM but this person has now seen what a clique the whole thing is and wants to step down because no one will listen to them. Lo and behold, now the CoG wants to do the job to "help out".

FWIW the CoG is an accountant so fully qualified!

@Neolara

Financial records of PTA would / should never go to governor's. They are totally different bodies with their own, separate legal frameworks. PTA is not a committee of governors.

This is exactly what I thought too

They can go to all parents whether they are governors or not. What you think is not correct. They do not go to any formal GB meeting but you cannot disenfranchise parents who happen to be governors. That is likely to be contrary to the constitution which normally says ALL parents and careers are members of the PTA and indeed all teachers, the Head and staff in plenty of cases. Some of them will be governors too. So no, there isn’t complete separation in terms of people. The Treasurer’s report from the pta would not be discussed by the governors though.

Whether or not it is legally possible, the bottom line is that this about how it could be perceived to any parent of the school, the audit team at the LA (if the school is a LA maintained school) and eventually the Charity Commission, on an assumption that the PTA is registered. In all cases it raises real potential issues and to me the Chair as an accountant should be able to see that this is not a clever idea.

The audit team at the LA will expect that the rules as adopted by the pta have been followed. Frankly I doubt if the auditors care because you have pta accounts separately and independently audited. Not by LA auditors at all.

I also cannot see why a busy Chair of Governors would be remotely interested but, if there are no legal reasons to exclude a parent from such a role (such as exclusions in the constitution), it is not possible to exclude this person whatever anyone thinks. The bottom line is following the agreed constitution regarding membership and appointments. It’s unlikely to be possible to disenfranchise any parent but it depends on what the constitution says. LA auditors are not involved as far as I know. Its not their money. It’s not held in school accounts. They see the annual accounts submitted to the CC but are not in a position to criticise the constitution or how it works in practice. Simply not their role. Neither would the CC have any idea about a duel role. How could they? They are totally separate bodies.

So What would the problem be, exactly? The main point is that the school and pta are not financially connected until the pta hands over money. That decision is made by the whole committee of parents and the pta treasurer ensures it happens. It’s all recorded. Nothing the pta does is the business of the Governors. If you are not happy with a parent/staff governor being the treasurer, you need to find someone else but it is open to challenge if you say that a parent cannot take on the role and this isn’t in the constitution as an exclusion.

What real potential issues does it raise? I’m struggling to find ones. What about the issue of barring parents from roles?

I'm also struggling to see what could possibly be the conflict. The governors are meant to keep the the head teacher accountable for pupil outcomes, set the strategic vision for the school alongside the head teacher and financial management of the delegated budget in accordance with the development plan.

The PTA treasurer is primarily an administrative role recording financial transactions and preparing the financial reports related to the money the PTA raise for the school.

Your use of the word coup suggests are jumping at shadows a bit. These are volunteer positions and largely thankless at that. Unless you think someone is misappropriating funds or something I can't possibly see what is making you so concerned.

Do the parents want to raise money for things the Head / governors don't agree with or something? What is all the drama about!?!

As a PTA Treasurer I think this setup sounds as if the 'parents' may be losing control of the PTA funds and they will just become an extension of the school's budget.

I'd be concerned about funding being spent on the 'nod' of the PTA Chair & the CoG/treasurer without proper committee discussion or approval.

The Primary PTA I was various roles for had clear rules on how spending was authorised - large spends pre-approved in principle at the AGM, medium spends approved by the wider committee, small spends could be just the core committee.

In the setup described I'd be concerned that money raised e.g. for play equipment might get diverted to say ipads without proper discussion.

Why would that happen if the Chair and committee have proper arrangements for agreeing expenditure? Why does everyone think the Chair of Governors, who is presumably a parent, is underhand and devious? There is no way the pta should hand financial control to their Treasurer. In most PTAs it’s administrative. It’s not decision making. It’s a sad state of affairs for people to be so suspicious of a fellow parent. This all supposes the Chair of Govs is a parent of course. If not, then they cannot be Treasurer. These accounts are separate from the school and it’s up to the whole committee to check expenditure is as agreed and not diverted. There must be more dodgy people in schools than I’ve ever encountered. Both as a governor and parents. A sensible Chair of Govs wouldn’t get involved so the pta should find an alternative and say no thanks. But they cannot exclude this person if they are a parent. It also depends if the Committee agree appointments or whether the parent body at the AGM do. If there are two candidates, so much the better. Choose the most suitable.

There shouldn't be any conflict of interest, the two bodies are entirely separate, plenty of PTA Treasurers are also governors and as long as they understand the distinction there should be no issue. There may be a rare instance where they would have to declare a conflict of interest at a Governors Finance meeting, but it would be a very rare occasion. PTA funds would not usually form part of Governor's meetings.

However, it sounds as if something else is going on here.

The last committee were basically forced out by this CoG who persuaded the Head to go along with a virtual coup.
Not understanding this at all. The Head nor CoG were part of the committee at the time? How did they force them out? If the committee just got fed up with interference they should have quit, then an EGM be called and the members (mostly parents) vote in a new committee.

A new (impartial) Treasurer was voted in at the AGM but this person has now seen what a clique the whole thing is and wants to step down because no one will listen to them. Lo and behold, now the CoG wants to do the job to "help out".
Ask if any other parents want to do the job? Encourage the other committee members to be welcoming to the new addition. If nobody else steps forward apart from the CoG then there may not be any other option as you must have a Treasurer. However, that doesn't mean that they can make the decisions on where the money goes. It isn't up to the Treasurer, it's the decision of the committee as a whole how the money is spent. That decision needs to be made in line with whatever is outlined in the constitution. Ideally it's a good idea to talk to the school about what they would like additional funds for, and some schools engage their wider membership with ideas, but the final decision lies with the committee as Trustees.

FWIW the CoG is an accountant so fully qualified!
There are no qualifications required to be a PTA Treasurer. Many are accountants, purely as they are often the people who volunteer for this unpopular role! (I've been trying to offload my job as Treasurer for several years to no avail, this year it's looking like I finally might have a successor! yay! unsurprisingly they are an accountant). If you can keep track of money and know how to use excel you are good to go! You could volunteer as the new Treasurer.

I agree there is no need for there to be a conflict of interest, but the OP at least has some concerns as to how things are being done.
It does rather depend on how strong the governance of the PTA is.
I have seen some very flaky PTA Chairs.

There should be Trustees. The Chair of the PTA doesn’t have sole power either. More “first among equals” relationship. It’s very important to understand the PTA s totally separate from the school other than membership of parents and raising money for the school.

It is, of course, good practice to liaise with the school about what they would like to raise money for or what they wish to spend money on. This is the way everyone works together and the whole school community benefits. The Treasurer simply doesn’t get to decide how money is spent and the governors have nothing to do with it. The PTA does need to find a way to liaise with the school about what they should spend their money on and all parents should be informed of what projects are and where money has gone.

Most parents move on from the pta when they realise it’s hard work! The governor might feel its worth stepping in to keep the pta going. However the onus is on other parents to get involved if they don’t want this. Usually someone finds some back bone and steps forward. Otherwise who will organise fund raising? The Treasurer won’t!

Has the op said if the CoG is a parent or not? If not, then legitimately it can be “no thanks” anyway!

@PresentingPercy

Has the op said if the CoG is a parent or not? If not, then legitimately it can be “no thanks” anyway!

No, she hasn't but I guess we've all taken that as a given as she was asking and also said the CoG was "besties" with Chair of PTA. You're quite right, if he/she isn't a parent they can clearly just say no.

Well - CoG might have had a Y6 who has just left and no other DC in school. Chair of PTA might have DC in the school - they could be friends for all sorts of reasons.

I'm a CofG and was asked to be treasurer of the PTA and declined as it's a potential conflict of interest and one person will have far too much influence over finances.

Also they're both thankless tasks and a lot of flipping work to do properly at the best of times.