Singapore Maths - opinions please?

[janeyloves]

Hi

My daughter is currently in Year 4 and the school are using the Singapore Maths books to teach and work through systematically, with the whole class progressing at the same speed. Does anyone have any opinions on this programme? My daughter finds Maths very easy and I was shocked at how basic it is. I've asked a few times for extension work for her but nothing has been forthcoming...not sure what to do now. I'm hesitant to complain.

The singamore method can work well but there absolutely should be extension work for her.

I was a governor at a school that used it and they were having 4 levels of work - hard, harder, hardest and Herculean. You get the picture. DC could work their way up after being taught the topic. Of course some DC didn’t need to start at hard. Some DC would struggle with hard. So I would ask why there is no extension work for the brighter dc. There should be.

Thanks both. I will have to speak to them again!

Yes there are levels and in theory she should be picking the level she wants after the whole class input. Also be aware that a lot of it now is about explaining what you are doing using the correct mathematical vocabulary. This is quite a difficult skill to master.

I know of at least one school in my area in West London that use that method. They even tend to hire teachers that have worked in Singapore/Hk/international schools, if you check carefully. Although the school is regarded as a very academic prep, they are criticised for not being able to extend children (or help them if they are behind). This has also historically been reflected in the school inspection reports, the inspectors can see the problem with the ethos. The method relies on repetition, take it or leave it approach, is less tailored to the child and only works with a certain type of child too. As a result this school has a big culling in Y1, Y2, Y3 for the ones that do not "keep up" (or really don't fit that way of teaching). So beyond the extension you should stay close so your child does not get bored and falls behind as a result, with bigger consequences. If your child is naturally good at it then she will be fine but not necessarily happy, and can mean burn out or loss of interest later on (long after you left the prep!)

Thanks everyone for your input. I will be keeping a close eye on it as the term progresses. It's certainly a different approach and perhaps the teacher needs to get used to it too. My daughter often finishes quite early and is then asked to help some of the others, rather than doing any extension work. I admit there's some value in being to explain your ideas but feel she should also be given work appropriate to her level.

Quite a lot of schools ask DC to do that whether it’s Singapore maths or not. I agree, you need a variety of approaches for her. Is she being asked to do “Herculean” or not?

As for the prep school: you simply won’t get this approach at a state school. They cannot offload dc and it means a lot to every school to ensure as many dc as possible do well at maths. I know at my school, the teachers undertook extensive training before this was introduced. Every aspect of it was given great thought and it would never, ever, be the intention that only a few would benefit. It’s not a system solely about teaching from the front and leaving dc behind who didn’t get it first time around. It’s about maths language, greater understanding and giving confidence to all. Our LA advisers adapted the purest form for our schools so it’s relevant. It’s certainly not easy to do this and it’s not about engaging teachers from abroad.

@Guymere to your point about the method requiring extensive training, there are teachers that have worked in Asia for a few years with Singapore Maths so obviously that is why they tend to be hired as they are already familiar with the school teaching methods. This school I know is a bit up or out not only on achievement but on teaching style, which may not be the case for OP's school but I would still watch it if they do not address concerns about extending and addressing the child's particular needs. I have heard this method is great to bring up standards on the average to above average but not necessarily the best for the ones with natural maths ability. Maybe Mumsnet teachers with experience can opine on this?

Interesting. I'm not sure if she's doing Herculean or not, she hasn't mentioned it (she's at her dads right now). I think I'll ask if I can look at her books...

Well they might not call it that at her school. The important thing is that she can work at a level with some challenge.

Where I’m familiar with, in the state system, we simply don’t have teachers from any country that teaches this system. Even if we did, we would expect them to be qualified uk teachers and undertake the required training for our school. They don’t just teach what they want. It is not a system that can translate directly from Asian schools to here.

@Guymere in the prep school I was referring to the teachers of course are all UK qualified and mostly native but have worked abroad in Asia. Just anecdote I guess, but I thought it was interesting to see how much focus they have on this and what they look when hiring

In prep schools it is not a requirement to be uk qualified. However what I’m trying to say is that if this is just seen as a “maths ethos” it’s difficult to ensure it works for all children unless it’s fully understood by SLT and training is put in place. I think you were worried that dc were left behind. That shouldn’t happen and state schools would guard against that. I’m surprised prep schools can afford to cull children and don’t recognise they are not implementing a “British” version that works for the vast majority. This is why it can take a long time to implement this system. State schools cannot cull.

Hello!
Does anybody know where I can buy Singapore math textbooks in the UK?
I only found some US-based websites which don't ship here.
Thanks!

Try mathsnoproblem.com

My dcs have it in their school using the maths no problem. I wonder if in Singapore the children are of a similar level so can all move through together without the extremes of those finding it easy/ hard. I have 2 dcs, one is very bright in maths and 1 struggles. My struggling dc has missed some essential skills and has slow processing, he never gets to finish his work and is moved on too fast. My other dc, speeds through it as finds it incredibly easy. Last year the teacher was fantastic and would set challenges though yet to see much of this in new year. I like the ideas behind it, lots of visual maths and modelling, I just question whether it works in a classroom with such wide abilities with no provision to catch those falling behind or extend those more able.

There really must be provision for those who are not so good at the maths. You should see a TA with them. You should see them revising the basic topics needed before they start a new more advanced topic. Sets even. Obviously the bright sparks cannot be slowed down but you should expect to see greater preparatory input into the less good so they can access the curriculum too. Otherwise these dc make no progress and no school wants that.

I think children from Asia are culturally different when learning maths. I’m sure some dc do struggle but fewer perhaps.

I absolutely agree and have questioned the school several times over this. Unfortunately they say that dont do interventions and they stay as a class and not taken out in groups. I have had to get a tutor to help, which I shouldn't have to do but it was really damaging his confidence.

At my former school, (governor, not teacher) DC were not taken out but the TA worked with the identified lower achievers in class. They didn’t always do the same work as the others. They did revision where necessary or simply much easier work to gain confidence. We did put in an extra “revision” class where dc started in school a bit earlier to get going in maths and recap yesterday’s work. Teachers have to want to do this though! It’s better to do it first thing rather than after school or lunch time.

Higher up the school (y6) we had a top set but mingled the others. 2 form entry school and there were three teaching groups. The top set was 50% of the year group so work was differentiated for them too. As indeed it was for the two lower groups.

All schools should intervene when DC are struggling. How do they expect progress if they don’t? Some schools make you angry!

@Guymere that sounds like a nice school. You guys did a good job! Was that anywhere near Outer London?

Ha. No. Home Counties but some distance from London. I was the Maths governor and I would say the school worked really hard to introduce “Singapore maths” and try and help our less able DC. It was a challenge but DC did make better progress. The school held maths evenings for parents do everything was explained.

@Rocketpants50

My dcs have it in their school using the maths no problem. I wonder if in Singapore the children are of a similar level so can all move through together without the extremes of those finding it easy/ hard. I have 2 dcs, one is very bright in maths and 1 struggles. My struggling dc has missed some essential skills and has slow processing, he never gets to finish his work and is moved on too fast. My other dc, speeds through it as finds it incredibly easy. Last year the teacher was fantastic and would set challenges though yet to see much of this in new year. I like the ideas behind it, lots of visual maths and modelling, I just question whether it works in a classroom with such wide abilities with no provision to catch those falling behind or extend those more able.

In Singapore they tend to put students in classes according to their grades in exams.. ( although it would be grades averaged across 4 subjects for example) So each class would generally have students of the same sort of academic ability..

our primary state school moved to it about 5 years ago now, they bought piles of maths no problems books and workbooks. the teachers were not trained and were learning to teach it with the kids
I dont like and my maths-able dont like very much either because it is based on repetition over and over again (they do lose children interest and it gets boring)
the method is not based on extension but on deepening, so the kids who have managed (survived staying awake) for the first set of worksheet will be given even more of the same but slightly harder or slightly different.
my daughter in year 5 has done a term of it, progressing independently without looking at the lessons not because she is a genius, only because it's so repetitive.
it's meant to take you to full mastery.
as said above, the class is not meant to move on to the next topic until everyone masters the current one (in the meantime, the kids who have gotten it deepens and deepens).
It works in Asia with properly trained teachers and a different work ethic, but in England It's not clear that it has been properly implemented yet.
There are some good practical and visual sides to it, like bar chart problem solving. I think it helps with understanding and certainly consolidate, however it can be a slow way of working (so not great for exams) and mental maths are not encouraged due to a great emphasis on explanation and showing your working.
the private schools around us are certainly not touching it.
So on the whole, It shouldn't be taught as a sole method.

We are a Maths No Problem school. We had two full days training on the approach before we started and have seen some great results in using it. On the whole my class do stay together for it but if a child or group of children need to work on a particular skill in order to progress then either myself or my TA will take them out for catch up. If any children haven't quite mastered the skill in the lesson we also send homework so that they can practice at home ready for the next day. Intervention is all based on working out what each child needs in order to be able to access the learning for their year group - not giving a Y4 child Year 2 work for the whole year...
The strength of this approach isn't through the worksheets in the work book - the progress that we see is in their exercise books where they explain their methods and use the models they have been taught to solve problems independently. All my children have various challenge tasks to complete when they have finished. The worksheets should only be a tiny part of the lesson and should take about 10 minutes to complete if the children have had quality input - it's mostly about developing maths thinking, vocabulary and giving them the tools to solve problems. It does work but it's expensive if you're going to do it properly and taining is essential.

as said above, the class is not meant to move on to the next topic until everyone masters the current one
This isn't true.
There is a schedule to be followed - say 2 weeks for place value, three weeks for addition and subtraction etc. The National Curriculum has a lot of Maths content - you would never get through it all if you never moved on! In my school we do take note of how well each child has mastered a particular topic and we address gaps in mental maths practice and fluency sessions.
Well worth noting here for the record - in Shanghai the children do not have such a wide variation in abilities. Shanghai schools are mostly private and for the children of the elite. Their high scores in PISA tests etc should not come as such a surprise ...