Disruptive child in DS class

[Mummynextdoor]

New child joined DS Y4 class when they returned on Monday. DS came home and said that the child had been disruptive all day - refusing to do anything, shouting, trying to hit the teacher - I walked past the classroom and could hear the teacher shouting - he said it had ruined his first day back. It seemed to be much of the same Tuesday and Wednesday.

When I asked him about his day today he didn't mention it but later when I commented that it sounded like the child had settled down my son said his behaviour was just the same but said "it's just the way it is Mummy'. He's also commented how shouty his teacher is with them all because she's so wound up.

I feel so sad for him as he was so looking forward to going back after 6 months.

I feel like I should say something but can't speak to the teachers at present so I would have to email but what do I say. The teacher clearly knows it's an issue and am sure her week has been difficult enough already.

Thanks @FunkyFunkyBeat that's interesting. My secondary was highly selective, which probably explains lack of many SEN, but it's true we had lots of play time and outdoors time at my leafy prep school. I often think how lovely it would be for all kids to have that sort of education.

There are a few children in DDs class who have additional needs but the school manage it really well, one little girl has 1:1 support and one little boy has a special space he can go to if it all gets too much and he needs some quiet. From what DD tells me he often self identifies he needs to get away and when he doesn't the teacher knows to ask him and direct him to his quiet corner.

It does sound like the teacher needs support and if the SLT haven't recognised that then I think it's appropriate to raise the concern and see if they can help. It doesn't have to be done in a complaining and difficult manner, it can be a constructive conversation.

The sad fact is a lot of funding is completely reliant on test results. I have tried and tried many times to get additional SEN support or a 1:1 for any child I think would benefit from it. Not sure if it's the same everywhere but I teach in an affluent area and there is a quota for how much SEN funding/support will be granted simply because of the area.

I ALWAYS have to fill in forms stating their testing scores and standardised scores. If they aren't deemed low enough 9 times out of 10 they won't receive support. The school will just be given "advice on how to help" which isn't great as we are understaffed and I have no teaching assistants as it is.

I've tried for a little girl with Aspergers. Very bright but severe social issues and anxiety. No funding given. A little boy displaying signs of Tourette's, ADHD and behavioural issues. Educational scores not low enough to provide 1:1. No funding. A little boy that was textbook autistic. Parents wanted funding and help but didn't want a diagnosis. No support given.

It's frustrating and a little soul crushing.

I always feel compelled to defend these children when parents skapegoat them for any little issue because their children see them as the "naughty child" in class. It happens more than you think.

For what it's also worth, I absolutely do not, and will never shout at my class, but have had to be stern/cross/disappointed, as I'm sure we all have to get a lesson or message across. I know of a few children that have called this shouting or being angry because they dont know what else to call it or don't have the vocab to describe it effectively.

@Sunshineandsparkle of course the teacher will be stressed but shouting is very unhelpful and will almost certainly be making things worse. There was always a few children in my old school who were highly disruptive - often had various SEN and difficult home lives, and yes they made my life very very hard and during the settling in period they will have annoyed other children. But teachers are trained to deal with situations like this and help "difficult" children cope, and shouting is not the way.

On the other hand, it's been a week so give her a chance, and also she may not have actually been shouting - children can interpret things in their own way. If its still an issue in a couple of weeks by all means bring it up

Children often say a teacher is shouting when they're just projecting their voice

@sunshineandsparkle if any teacher or even parent thinks shouting is even remotely helpful then that's where half the issue is. The absolutely worst thing to do is to shout

@Thisismytimetoshine

The op hasn't claimed to have heard it herself, mondaywine? Where did you get that from?

It's in the first post. I walked past the classroom and could hear the teacher shouting

I would mention it. It’s so unfair on all the other children in the class.
This is one of the big reasons that private schools are so appealing.

It's in the first post. I walked past the classroom and could hear the teacher shouting
. Time to go to SpecSavers...

In England, local authorities do not have pots of funding for individual Send children. They can help make adaptations to buildings but they should, and do, devolve send funding to schools. The only send money kept by LAs, as far as I’m aware, is for non mainstream school provision and those children with an EHIC stating what extra provision will be provided and funded. Schools must make provision for send children up to this point because they have the devolved money. It can take a long time to assess the needs of a child with many hurdles to overcome.

If this child had a history of poor behaviour elsewhere, it should have been disclosed to your school so provision was in place. However sometimes this is hidden unless it’s a Managed move or the child was excluded from elsewhere. If your school had a space then they would have had to take him. I’m afraid a bit of patience will be required whilst the school try different tactics and strategies to help him. Sometimes schools are very effective at putting pressure on LAs to get Ehics very quickly.

@FatGirlShrinking

Going against the grain on this thread but I do think you should mention it to the school. Every single child in that class deserves to have a good education. If the teacher is getting so wound up they're shouting and distracted then none of them are getting what they need.

It is the schools responsibility to address the needs of the whole class and to look after the mental well-being of their staff. It sounds like the teacher needs more support either in the form of additional help in the classroom or through training.

I agree with this 100%

@CandyLeBonBon

Oh dear. You're 'that' parent.

So any parent who EVER has ANY kind of concern is suddenly considered 'that' parent?

You should contact the school.

Unfortunately, schools have to allow a child to fail in a standard setting in order to gather evidence to request an assessment of their needs, no matter how obvious it is that the child can not cope in a mainstream setting. If enough evidence is gathered and assessments are completed, the SENCO can then ask the LA to assess the child for an EHCP, which again requires a significant amount of evidence of their needs. Meanwhile, the child is failing in the classroom on a daily basis, the teacher is exhausting themselves by trying a huge range of strategies to prove that they don’t work, and the other students’ learning is disrupted.

It’s a terrible system, but your DC shouldn’t have to suffer. If parents make enough of a fuss something will probably be done, eg the disruptive child will be withdrawn by a TA or member of SLT. It’s not great, but unfortunately that’s how it tends to work.

I agree that it is worth an email, but that now seems a bit premature and unlikely to be helpful. It is true that parental complaints can sometimes help a class teacher press Senior leaders for more support, though it can also be very demoralising for the teacher. It sounds certain that the teacher knows this new child is having an impact.

OP, if/when you do contact the school, focus on your child and the impact on him. I would suggest waiting until next weekend and reassessing. Maybe keep a log between now and then, but don't push your son for info. It is amazing how much children take on as normal in their school lives. I'm not saying normalising violence is a good thing, just that dwelling on it might not benefit your son either.

I've been the teacher in this situation. It feels awful, as though you're failing the child as well as the rest of the class. Your email could really help.

@BKCRMP I agree that shouting isn’t helpful but every person has a limit of what they can take. Just because someone chose to be a teacher, it doesn’t mean that they should have to put up with such foul behaviour from a child who is ruining it for the rest of the class. Also, the OP’s child is young so when they said that there was shouting, I very much doubt that the teacher had shouted all day. However, if a child was trying to hit the teacher, I don’t think I could blame her for raising her voice at some point or being at the end of her tether by the end of the day. Imagine going to work and someone was trying to assault you and not only did you have to protect yourself, you were also responsible for keeping 30 other people around you safe and out of harms way. All the while trying to impart knowledge to those 30 children whose life has been disrupted beyond recognition and have lost out on months of schooling. The teacher is probably desperately trying to play catch up and can’t even do that as some child is ignoring instructions and causing chaos. It’s very easy to criticise her for “shouting” when the reality is, we don’t actually know what went on in the classroom on that day.

@BKCRMP P.s. apologies for calling you an idiot

If you are new to the school, I'd move. I know that's not the PC answer but as a teacher in state schools - it will not change. Ask to have a walk round before joining and listen carefully for signs of disruption. Unfortunately mobility means it may not stay that way. It's the main appeal of private schools, I totally agree.

I agree with the PPs who have said that it's probably worth e-mailing the teacher about the disruption rather than the child - but waiting a little while.

One of mine had a child who sounds fairly similar - arrived over the summer without any previous records and was extremely disruptive. I was at governor meeting later that year and a question was asked and the Head said that none of the parents had commented on any disruption from that child, probably because all that had been said was to the teacher or between the parents. It won't be a magic bullet by any means and needs to be written in the right way but may be something the school can use as evidence if it's trying to find some elusive additional funding.

@Thisismytimetoshine

The op hasn't claimed to have heard it herself, mondaywine? Where did you get that from?

The opening post said I walked past the room and could hear the teacher shouting?

I think a teacher referring to any child in a primary school as “foul” as pp does upthread is very concerning. If a child is behaving like this, the child almost certainly has special needs. This might not be for all their school career, but it is certainly for now.

These children have not been in school for 6 months. We don’t know what SEND the child has or what help has previously been offered. We don’t know if the child comes from a violent background or if they are adopted. There may be a lot of info about this child or next to nothing. It could be that lots has been tried at a previous school of they excluded very quickly. This child could be new to the area or it’s a managed move or arrival following an exclusion. The child might never have been to school.

Any Head worth anything at all will know that there are classroom disruptions. They should be monitoring this class. The Send co and behaviour lead need to give help to this teacher/child/parents/carers. Hiding it and pretending all is ok really doesn’t help anyone.

Of course the children in the class should have a safe classroom in which to learn. If it’s not safe, it’s reasonable to ask the school what measures they are taking to ensure pupils can learn. It might also depend how often these outbursts occur. Once a week or several times a day. It’s always worth remembering the “Every Child Matters” slogan. It’s still very relevant.

@Patience1990 The law is very clear a request to the LA for a EHC needs assessment should only consider two things
whether the child or young person has or may have special educational needs (“SEN”); and
whether they may need special educational provision to be made through an EHC plan.
Academic attainment or diagnosis are not a criteria and so they cannot be a reason to refuse. Dd's IQ is 160 plus when her anxiety was sky high so probably higher according to ed psych she has always had a SSEN/ EHCP since before she started nursery. You should support the parents to contact IPSEA or SOSSEN and ask them to help them make a parental request and appeal if necessary. You should also become familiar with the SEN code of practice so that when you are quoted LA policy you can point out where their policy contravenes educational law. You will have parents of children with SEN cheering you on if you do.

I think a teacher referring to any child in a primary school as “foul” as pp does upthread is very concerning.

No one called the child foul, let alone a teacher.

@hiredandsqueak we have a school SEN co-ordinator that deals with the official side of everything. I meet with her and discuss my concerns obviously, as well as having regular discussions with the parents. Not sure if things are done in the same way in Wales as they are everywhere else but our school is severely underfunded and understaffed. As much as I would love to have the spare time to read up on everything I currently co-ordinate 4 areas of my own on top of teaching full time and just feel like I don't get a minute to myself.

All I know is that every time I have filled out a referral form, test scores and standardised scores are asked for regardless of the nature of referral. We are always given "advice" on how to support which of course I do my best with and always make sure the parents are aware of what we are doing but very rarely have I found that I've been given actual support that makes a difference. It's only further up the school if the situation has become worse and when the gaps have become much more significant that this gets looked at again. Can often be a case of too little too late by this point though.

I just feel the system is a little broken tbh 🤷🏻‍♀️

What happened to Every Child Matters? Some seem to matter more than others. I think its unfair that your child OP, has looked forward to returning to school and now has a shouty teacher who is obliged to focus disproportinately on one child.
The child with additional needs should have a support package in place.

I can't say I have knowledge of the welsh system but from googling it seems that there is a welsh code of practice. I would probably point any parents to IPSEA or SOSSEN anyway as if they don't have expert knowledge of the welsh system they will certainly be able to signpost parents elsewhere.