League tables or Ofsted more important when comparing schools?

[user327253]

I know I will get a lot of answers saying neither and you just need to visit schools to decide, but there is a good chance we won't be able to visit schools this autumn due to Covid. I have noticed some schools with recent Outstanding Ofsted's are actually near the bottom of the local league tables. But I also know that some schools coast along near the top of the league tables because they get more support from parents and the standard of teaching isn't necessarily excellent or nurturing. Or that excellent SATS results isn't necessarily an ideal.

So I just wondered other people's thoughts on this. How do you compare schools if you can't visit? What is important to you? Ofsted doesn't seem to be helpful, is that true?

The thing is, both have massive flaws.

If it's a small primary (my dd is one of 9 in her year) then says results are massively affected by one child each year. I feel for them as my dd is fairly bright but suffers with massive anxiety and didn't even sit the KS1 sats because if it

I don't rate Ofsted at all. They go in with an agenda and find anything they can to fit that narrative. But their report is a good place to start. I wouldn't panic about open evenings just yet. We don't know what's happening yet. Mine is year 5 so I know the worry. She's missed out on the open day in summer term.

It depends what kind of parent you are.
Some parents are not happy unless their child's school has an 'Outstanding' rating because they see it as the be all and end all. It isn't. An 'Oustanding' rating may have been awarded anything up to ten years ago and with the OFSTED criteria changing some previously 'Oustanding' schools are moving to 'Requires Improvement' and even Special Measures. Similarly, league tables can be affected by a number of factors including intake, cohort and number of SEND pupils in that year.
Lots of parents think that 'Outstanding' or top of the league table means that the school will be good for their child and then find out the hard way later on that this is not necessarily the case. There's a lot to be said for asking parents with children at the school what they think, finding out about the school's ethos and generally getting a feel for the place. Don't get all sharp elbowed and hung up on results or OFSTED. Outstanding seldom means what you think it does.

I taught in an outstanding school. Constant pressure from reception onwards and everything was done for show. Children were tested constantly to make sure they were up to scratch.
You couldn't pay me to send my child there.

DS attends a school with a good Ofsted but low sats results. The school specialises in teaching children with additional needs and is the most wonderful, nurturing place.

I would look at when the ofsted report was... the outstanding one by us hasn’t been inspected for 11 years so since then probably most teachers have changed as has the head.

League tables also worth a look- look at value added, how much progress are the kids making there

The best way would be to talk to parents of children who go there and see what they think

Have a good look through their website- have they made a lot of effort? What are their Core values? Etc

Sounds weird but in sept you could go stand outside and see what the kids going in seem like? Are they happy/ friendly etc

Read the actual ofsted report, and discount it almost entirely if it was old.
The SATs results will reflect the intake, so will mostly follow either the area, or where there's a lot of choice the attitude of the parents - the parents who value "good" SATs results, will choose the schools that had good SATs results. Those same parents will also be the ones maximising the SATs results for their individual child. In any case remember to look at progress, not absolute numbers.

But basically, ignore all those and go to the school nearest you unless it has real marks against it and the one next nearest is also a short walk from home.

To be honest, my gut is saying that our catchment Good rated school with the most deprived intake (over 90% pupil premium) is the best. It's in the top 15% of schools on the league tables out of a very large borough of schools. It is one form entry. Has a very up to date website and is nurturing. Encourages parents to do linked provision alongside their child for reception for half an hour each morning (with the high pupil premium most parents don't work, I could manage this and think it would really suit my child).

We have a chance of getting into a couple of different schools. One is also only rated good, has a national average rate of pupil premium, but has exactly the same league table/sats results and less progress. It would be a lot harder for school runs.

There is also a recently inspected outstanding in all areas school, that had a high level of pupil premium and is very low down in the league tables.

Or a good rated school which has a very low level of pupil premium, offers lots of forest school which I love, but would be the hardest to manage school run wise and has the exact same league table results as the deprived area catchment school, so less progress? It is also three form entry.

Which would you choose out of those? We are considering relocating in a few years so could potentially change schools in time for year 3 if we don't like the school we choose.

I’d also read the Ofsted reports in detail, look carefully at performance. A good look at the website too to understand core values, extracurricular provision, see what events and schoo trips happen etc.

If you aren’t on benefits than good on you for having a preference for a school where almost everyone is on FSM. I think many people might discount it as they’d feel that as a family they won’t fit in.

won't fit in JoJoSM2? Is that code?

If the Ofsted is over 5 years old, I would pretty much ignore it and definitely over 10. A school’s data would give you some of the story but in a one form entry form it only takes one or two children to under perform and it then really affects the overall data, so whilst it tells you some thing, it really doesn’t tell the whole story.
Look at the school websites, read the newsletters, ask local parents, walk past the school at leaving time or dropping off time - are the children happy?
Forget the schools, write a list - what’s most important to you? e.g. nurturing environment, exam results, forest school, easy school run. Which school best fits this? Write a list of questions to ask. Schools will manage something even it is a virtual tour or question and answer session with the head.

@JoJoSM2 - children and families on FSM are no different to anyone else. In fact, many value education extremely highly and are extremely supportive of school life as a result. A school with a real community feel can add so much to both education and life.

Plus, the kids don’t know who is on FSM unless they are told, nor will they actually care.

OP - it sounds like you have three great schools there. I would look at both OFSTED and results but like others have said, these are only part of the story. Look at their websites, are there newsletters and lots of up to date information? See if they have social media pages too (some do, some don’t - not essential but will add to the “feels”). Yes to standing around the school gates at pick up and drop off time too.

Neither. Vibe when you visit the school. The enthusiasm and passion of the SLT/teachers. What other parents currently there say. For me a good SEN reputation was a must

@BKCRMP

I think OP is worried they won’t be able to visit because of Covid. My son is due to start next sept and I’ve wondered if we won’t be allowed a physical tour around, our pre School are doing virtual tours only!

Locally they are doing visits and tours. From chatting to our head they aren't entering classrooms with the prospective parents but that's the only bit that will be notable different.

So I'm not an expert, as I'm just starting to look at primaries for my preschooler. But my local council has a website that gives loads of info on schools. I saw that for secondaries you can get a list of schools ordered by things like Progress 8. Which I think shows how much progress kids make in 8 subjects, rather than just their level of attainment. Could be worth looking for that kind of info from your local council.

For us, it was a combination of factors. We weren't bowled over by the Head when we visited (kept the group waiting for ages and her presentation wasn't very adult-focused). Our view was definitely coloured by a poor reputation locally from the previous leadership team.

But we were swayed to putting it down for first 'choice' by their very active, positive social media and website presence. The new Ofsted, which came out after the application deadline, also validated our decision. And, pragmatically, it also offers the wraparound care we need...

I think your gut sounds good. Forest school is lovely, but having friends who live nearby is really important in primary, when you have to spend all your time ferrying them to playdates. And primary schools are usually really involved in the local community, doing trips to nearby attractions etc, so it's nice to be somewhere where that actually is your local community.
I will say that multi-form entry has advantages as well as disadvantages. It means your kid can be moved out of the form with the other kid who is bullying them, that there are three year one teachers so your kid will (hopefully) be put with the teacher whose style suits them best, and if they're struggling to make friends, the classes are mixed each year, making it easier to find somebody.
I went to a small school and then a large one and coped much better at the big school because there were more oddballs like me.

Personally, as a teacher, I'd discount the OFSTED unless it was done within the last year or two and flagged up some significant concerns. As a PP said, inspections and the following reports do not always reflect the reality of the school but do always fit the narrative that the chief inspector starts before he/she arrives at the door.

If you can't visit the school, I'd focus on the data but this isn't the same as league tables. There are two measures: attainment and progress.

Low attainment and low/average progress means that children start the school below where they should be and the school doesn't manage to improve this effectively. These are schools to avoid as it suggests there should be concerns about the quality of teaching and learning.

Low attainment but high progress means that the school is effective at improving the knowledge that the children have, likely through strong teaching, but the starting points are too low to allow the school to have a high place on the league tables. Could be a very good choice.

High attainment but low/average progress is another one to avoid. It suggests that the children only achieve well because they start well: the school may not be doing enough to stretch their pupils as far as they could go.

High attainment and high progress is another good option - the children start school well but the school still manages to challenge them in such a way that they exceed the already high expectations of them.

League tables are objective. They tell you all you need to know about the academic outcomes.

Ofsted are more subjective. 1-2 days of being 'inspected' with various government and political agendas, and the teachers putting on a show.

Word of mouth and whether the school is oversubcribed and talking to the Head.

Have a look when the last ofsted has been done... our local outstanding school hasn’t had an inspection for 10 years. It really, really isn’t outstanding anymore...

FSM children attract pupil premium so any school with 90% is getting a whopping amount of extra money. For some it’s circa £1300 pa extra per child so each class could have £35,000 extra. Times 7 classes that’s heading towards £250,000 extra. So yes, they definitely should be good!

Having spent time being a governor, not all FSM children are the same and plenty can be pretty deprived. This doesn’t mean they are not intelligent. It can mean they have higher Sen than the other dc and do need the interventions they get. Pp money isn’t given because it’s not needed. These dc, overall, make less progress and achieve less well. So if you are happy with this and the difficulties that might come with it, that’s fine. It could mean no school trips (no one can afford them), birthday parties being rare, (for the same reason) and various other noticeable things that lack of money shows up. Raising money for the school is usually very difficult and parents are definitely not all engaged!

Ofsted: they look at progress and quality of teaching over time. That’s vital. Not 10 years out of date though. Look for yo-yo schools that go in and out of RI. You want to avoid that.

League tables: deprived area schools near the bottom snd leafy lanes at the top. Draw from that what you want but I know where 90% fsm would be around here. I’m sure your dc will be happy at this school and that’s very important.