Islington primaries state v private: honest opinions sought

[FlyingPT]

We’ve been out of the UK 8 years. Due to return for good in July/August lockdown permitting. DD5, bright and focused. DS8 bright, sporty and a rebel without a cause. He does well with firm boundaries and high expectations, and without is a regular pain in the proverbial. He’s been tested for any issues and current school (IB PYP) is clear it’s him pushing boundaries with teachers, those that take no nonsense, he’s fine with etc.
This leaves us a bit 🤷🏼‍♀️ In terms of where to go for school when we get back. Several friends here think he’ll sink in the state sector. DD will thrive anywhere - it’s him I’m concerned about ! I’m state educated and husband private and neither of us hold strong opinions on which to go for. Financially it’ll be a strain but doable to go private. Both DH and I just trying to make an informed decision - So I’m looking for honest recommendations/thoughts on schools around N1/EC1 etc. Collective wisdom of MN and all that.

There are some very good state schools in Islington. There tends to be a bit of a divide, with there often being a more middle class school near a more deprived one, and all the professional parents avoiding the deprived ones if they can. ☹️ I did some training in some of the latter category and the teachers are excellent, but there are issues with challenging behaviour.
Do you know which ones you’d be in the catchment for?
Another consideration is the uncertainty around what schools will be like for the next year or so, with potentially part time attendance and social distancing and some remote learning. It’s hard to predict what it’s all going to look like but the private sector are certainly going to be trying hard to keep their pupils and are wealthier therefore more resources.

Cyberworrier thanks for the quick response. Islington admissions says we will be counted as mid term admissions and will be asked to take a space where available. We’d have priority as we are without a current space... but for obvious reasons I want both kids in the same school! Rotherfield is close and new north academy. We are close to Essex Rd.

Are your jobs secure? Just thinking about the financial pressure. Better to save for a private secondary education? Our deprived inner London area has wonderful primaries. (But truly terrible secondaries!)

Secure jobs.

I know Rotherfield a bit! Have a lot of respect for one of the SLT there. I think from my vague knowledge it’s not one of the cushier Islington primaries but definitely has some great staff and nice children. I’m afraid I don’t know much about New North Academy. It’s a tricky one without knowing your child... from what you’ve said he possibly would do better in the smaller classes etc of a private school. Not as a criticism of these schools but just as there will probably, from my experience of schools in the area, be a few children with emotional or behavioural problems, which is inevitably distracting/disruptive. For most children, that’s fine, but may be negative influence for your son and mean less attention from teachers than he needs.
I caveat all this by saying I definitely don’t know either school that well (apart from really liking some staff at one!) so I may be sounding over cautious.

I am sorry that this is not an Islington specific answer but it is worth bearing in mind that behaviour management in many private primary schools is not as good as it is in state schools. Teachers sometimes rely on the upper middle class behaviour standards to set the tone. There is less deprivation and less challenging behaviour and the key tactic for dealing with it is very often to report it to parents and expect solutions to be driven by them. This works for plenty of families but, where it does not, children can be asked to leave for being persistently disruptive.
Children with behaviour issues at private school can be quickly pigeonholed and stigmatised as the naughty child and this can have a knock-on effect for friendships, playdates etc. “Just stay away from Jack if he can’t play nicely” etc
Both my DDs were privately educated and I never saw a truly successful outcome for a challenging classmate. There were no creative strategies to deal with it. They all eventually left the school having been deflated by being constantly told that they were naughty and inappropriate.
It does depend how challenging your son’s behaviour is.
Interestingly DD14 is still privately educated and, without exception, the teachers she rates are those who have also taught in the state sector because their classroom management is better.

Interesting points from @GetOffTheTableMabel, I particularly agree about some of the best teachers in private sector having come from the state sector. However, the flip side of that is sometimes that they left the state sector because of the pressures the system is under, endless behaviour management being one of the major stress points.

Islington is unusual as it is both one of the wealthiest and poorest parts of London. There is a lot of poverty and some families struggling with serious hardships. Don’t get me wrong- I have huge admiration for a lot of people from the communities I’ve met in the borough, huge generosity and kindness from people who’ve received very little of either themselves. But there are problems.

I suppose the difference between the disruptive pupils at private and at a poorer state school is that for the latter there is a stronger likelihood of exclusion from school at secondary and ending up in PRU and potentially in gangs.

I have taught in private and state in London and have definitely seen better teaching in state schools but have never experienced behaviour problems of the same kind at private as at state- or at least there seemed to at least be enough adults to make situations seem more in control.

Hi FlyingPT

From what you've written, your children will be going into years 4 and 1 - is that right? It may be that, state or private, your challenge will be to find a school that has spaces for those years. Most of the private schools operate a waitlist.

GetOffTheTableMabel makes a good point. From your post, it's hard to know whether your child is actually disruptive or is just a bright child who gets bored easily.

What sort of school are you looking for? There are some extremely good state primaries in Islington. The private schools have reputations which vary from being very liberal to extremely rigorous.

Also, do you know what sort of senior school you are interested in having the children go to?

First of all thank you for the thoughtful answers and questions. In order (I think)
@Cyberworrier I think my biggest issue with my son is that he very easily becomes the leader of the ‘naughty’ kids. In the three schools he has been in he has thrived with firm but fair teachers, but easily goes off task etc with teachers that are (for most kids) just kind etc
@GetOffTheTableMabel he is def in the ‘naughty’ general mucking around etc not enough to be sent to the Head teacher etc but enough that words such as ‘challenging’ have been used, which in my opinion means they want to say pain in the arse. Current teacher is very switched on with him and has pointed out that when he knows boundaries he is actually very bright and gets on with stuff. If its something he is actively interested in he does very well.
@CruCru
In terms of secondary I don’t want him in any of the Islington secondaries for all the reasons you have mentioned. Ideally we’d look at a grammar school further out North, but will shell out for private if necessary etc. I know it sounds glib but I want somewhere that will see his potential and give him the boundaries and encouragement for him to excel. His current Head jokes that its great that we see when he’s being a pain, but see all his good points too etc....we do have some very precious parents at the current school who see no wrong in their little poppets etc
We now think its better for us to get back home, homeschool/tutor and actually go visit schools rather than trying to do this essentially remotely, hence me posting here to try and get a MN collective opinion.
Any comments on secondaries in N1/EC1 to add?

And yes they will go into Year 4 and Year 1! Not ideal I know!

Hi FlyingPT

I live near where you are going to live. The popular state primary schools nearby are Canonbury, Hanover and (especially) William Tyndale. Rotherfield and the New North Academy are not the choice of education-obsessed middle class parents.

Going a bit farther out, Thornhill to the east and Shoreditch Park in Hackney are also good schools. Shoreditch takes a strict approach which may or may not work with your DS. St Mary’s C of E gets excellent results but is a one-form school.

In terms of private schools, you could look at Rosemary Works, to the east. Personally I think the EC1 private schools are a bit of a schlep from this area, though I know parents who are happy with Dallington and Charterhouse Square. You can read the threads on this board about the Gower school and then make up your own mind whether to shortlist it.

I think your strategy of waiting until you can tour the schools is a good one. However, William Tyndale is an excellent school and I would think they could handle your DS. it’s massively popular so it would be hard to get places but you don’t lose anything by trying. As it’s an academy, it manages its own admissions so you’d need to contact the school directly.

Correction: Thornhill is west of you.

Know kids at Canonbury, Thornhill, Gillispie, Hanover, Joan of Arc, St John Highbury Vale, William Tyndale, Yerbury. The latter three are perceived as the hot middle-class ticket but I really don't know that they necessarily offer anything that the others don't. I'm sure there are other good Islington primaries, these are just the ones I know.

The good things about all of them are a sense of community, diversity that reflects the community (rather less so in the three that I mentioned, especially in St John Highbury Vale), most kids in walking distance, pretty high standards and good results.

The negatives will be large class sizes and a bit of a narrow curriculum.

BTW getting into one of the grammars is insanely hard. Much easier to get into even the most sought-after independent secondaries.

@Terentia We’ve not heard of Rosemary Works so will check that out. Dallington looks like one of those schools that my son will either do really well at or just faff around in. There’s no half way house with him so Dallingtons a no. I am really feeling the pressure on this for his sake.
@PatienceVirtue what (In your opinion) are the good secondaries - we are Catholic so I have looked at the Oratory etc. The secondaries in Islington don’t appeal for all the reasons mentioned by other posters.
Has anyone opinions on St Paul’s and The Lyceum? This may sound mad but I don’t like the fact Charterhouse Square doesn’t have a uniform (and appears insanely hard to get into!) The Gower seems to have past it’s peak, and I’ve heard very mixed things from past and current parents.

Many of the popular Islington primaries don't have a uniform - Hanover, William Tyndale, Yerbury.

And the schools that do have a uniform have one only in the loosest sense, more of a dress code with a manky polyester fleece.

What do you mean FlyingPT - I don't see anyone on here explaining what's wrong with Islington secondaries? Central and Mary Mags are fine, for example. And COLA-I has just got an outstanding ofsted although its cohort is still considered a bit intimidating.

An 11+ tutor I know says that the least prepared and seemingly worst taught of her pupils were from St Pauls and Gower.

We live in Islington & have experiences (personal & through friends) of Yerbury, Canonbury, Sacred Heart, William Tyndall, Tufnell Park, Grafton & Thornhill. Canonbury is a very good school with great support staff, SEN provision & SLT. Yerbury is academically good if you put the work in at home & has a great community feel but (IMO) isn’t great for SEN & is a bit of anomaly due to the lack of diversity. If you’re looking at Catholic schools, Sacred Heart just off Holloway Road is very good. It’s got a very diverse intake & the SEN provision is excellent. I have girls & our 4 top secondary school choices are have an outstanding Ofsted & one of the main reasons we are dithering about moving is we haven’t found such good state secondary schools in any area we’ve looked at (that we can afford!).

Thanks again everyone for responding. I shall suck up the uniform situation! @Inmyownlittlecorner Sacred Hearts a bit far for us. After several years of only driving places etc I am keen we are able to walk or take public transport!
@PatienceVirtue I live very close to COLA-I and I have witnessed first hand some appalling bullying and behaviour (and yes I did call the school office etc and they responded in a very professional manner) we used to live near Mary Magdalene and my understanding is its almost impossible to get into etc. At this point I just want to make the right decision for primary for DS and then worry about secondary after that!
Thanks again everyone. Much appreciated!

I have 2 dc at Lyceum. It’s moved to a new building around the corner which is bigger brighter and has an outdoor playground. It really is a fantastic school with a lot of emphasis on good behaviour and doing well at school. There’s a real focus on music and drama and sports is starting to take off too. We live quite near you and get to school on scooter or bus. We didn’t get into Hanover so chose to go private. Yr6 pupils go to a big variety of all the top private schools / grammar so have good outcomes too.

Charterhouse Square is pretty awful. If you decide to go private it is worth thinking about the Hampstead preps- The Hall, Arnold House etc: it's a short tube trip and they are much better value for money. I've also heard good things about St Pauls prep

Already mentioned but if you go the state route and can deal with the slightly longer journey then Shoreditch Park in N1 has rave reviews from a few parents I know. It falls under Hackney rather than Islington though. If Stoke Newington is an option then William Patten is very popular. Again in Hackney and difficult to get in if you're not in the catchment/have a sibling at the school.

I have no direct experience of Private schools - mine are both at state primaries in Hackney - but DD has attended the Half Term camps at the Gower and I was really impressed. One of my NCT Group mums pulled her child out of Charterhouse as he was unhappy but I don't think the quality of teaching was the issue.

Secondary Schools in Islington

I was surprised to read negative comments about Secondary Schools in Islington. They have transformed over the last 10 years and there are some great choices. St Mary Magdalene Academy, Central Foundation for Boys, Elizabeth Garrett Anderson are absolutely fantastic schools. And there are others that are up and coming with great Ofsted reports.