Want to move 3 children, only 2 places available

[slfk3]

Hello,

I have a yr 3, 2 and reception age boys who are currently at a C of E school chosen for proximity to our house. They have done ok but I'm concerned about large gaps in their schools curriculum, their results are poor and behavior is a big problem regularly impacting not their lessons. I volunteer regularly at the school, 3 times a week min, so know it well and don't see things improving. My problem is finding somewhere better with places for the 3, I've applied for a secular school which would be my preference, but they haven't a space for the yr 2 child. The school suggested applying for the places and then appealing for the yr 2 place. At the same time, a Catholic school has told they would have space for all 3 from September but I don't know if I should take my chances and appeal for the yr 2 place when it comes back denied and risk it being denied and risk the places at the Catholic school going in that time, or best to take the Catholic spaces? I was raised Catholic but don't practice, I don't particularly have issues with it as RE is taught everywhere I would simply prefer the secular option, smaller school, very well behaved vibes, lots of music, ICT, French that mine currently don't get where they are. Does anyone have experience with appealing to get a child a place in similar circumstances?

Many thanks for any thoughts/tips/advice!

What would be the grounds for an appeal?

Can you manage to do two school runs for a while? I think I’d be inclined to take the places that are available, and then wait. Something will come up.

Did the school encourage you to appeal or merely inform you of the appeals process?

Did the Catholic school not say they will have space for all 3 from September as long as no Catholic children apply for same spot? They would normally be higher on list.
If do I'd definitely go with other school.... If got 2 in would worst case scenerio be you get Yr 2 child in in Sept when starts yr3 (as can't you go over 30 then?)

An appeal is much easier for yr3. Could you juggle both schools until then? After school club/ friend etc? Trouble is once people start to jump ship more will follow so worth going early.

@KisforKoala I presume LAs can vary. I deal with appeals for my school and they do not cost us anything. We have encouraged appeals before when we can go over PAN when a year group is full but the class is not (mixed year group classes).

Your problem is that any appeal for the year 2 pupil is likely to be an infant class size case if you try to change now. You can only effectively win an infant class size appeal if there has been a mistake made in the admission process, which for an in-year application is very very unlikely.
Not sure how the catholic school can offer and ensure places for September - they are definitely not allowed to hold places open.
I suspect that if you are to move all three that you best chance is to arrange to move for September start. You then apply mid June for the places in the assumption that current reception and year 3 spaces are still available. If there is no year 2 place, you appeal on the basis of starting in year 3 in september when it will not be an infant class size case and you can argue a good case for admission.

We don 't encourage or deter appeals as we have no say in it.

It does cost £200 per appeal and we lose the Head for several hours or more.

Some schools are charged per appeal and some not. It depends on who is responsible for admissions.

Thank you so much for the replies.

The secular school encouraged me to appeal, said to make a strong case about the bad behavior at their current school effecting them, the mold in the classrooms where they are, and the preference for a secular school. They said before the switch from 3 tier they had a PAN of 40 so year 3/4 this year are mixed classes (which mine have where they are) and then some from year 5 go to the odd middle school still left open so back to single class sizes. The current year 3 group have 4 spaces available and reception has 2 so as a school there would appear to be room. Assuming they offer me the two places next week and the denial of the one, do I have to take the two places while I appeal the second or will they be practical and understand that I would want to wait till the appeal concludes to decide to move them? I'm happy to wait till September to secure 3 places in my school of preference.

The Catholic offered me the places from September because they have places for yr 3 and reception now, but yr 2 is currently full with one child having already informed them they will be moving abroad during the summer. They seemed to understand I would want to move them together and said I could do it that way.

Based on timings it feels like the appeal wouldn't be dealt with until summer term anyhow so would then be for a place in year 3, so am I correct in thinking that it would then be looked at as an appeal for a year 3 place for September? I don't know how logical/pragmatic the process is. I keep thinking how if they looked at the applications and said "right, we haven't yr 2 now but we can offer them a place in September when yr 3 so here's three places from September" I could start to sleep at night again. : /

I’d say if the secular school encouraged you to appeal, go down that route, particularly with the additional information you’ve provided regarding mixed year groups etc. I’m not an expert though so it might be worth tagging one of the appeals experts active on this board who regularly advise parents on these issues.

Best of luck

We had to have the kids in the new school 4 weeks from being offered a place. We risked the offer being withdrawn if we weren't they by then.
I dont know how long a mid year appeal takes.

How does the catholic school know they will have space in September if they dont have it now?

If the school is encouraging you to appeal it suggests they may not put up too strong a fight at the hearing. However, if it is an infant class size case (i.e. there are 30 pupils in each Y2 class at the moment) it is still going to be very hard to win. If the panel follow the rules you shouldn't win. However, if it is actually an appeal for Y3 there is a very good chance you could win.

The Catholic school appears to be working on the basis that your children won't start until September. If that is the case and they don't expect you to move the Y3 and Reception children immediately you could use them as a backstop but you need them to confirm that. It may be that they expect two children to move immediately with your Y2 child following in September.

Only the school can tell you if they will allow you to sit on the offers for the other two children while waiting for the outcome of the appeal.

The school won't hold places open. So you'll have to take them now, or risk them going to another child/ren in the interim.

I'm also curious as to how the Catholic school knows there will be definitely be spaces available in September. They can't possibly (for example) know how many children will move into the area over the next few months and can't "hold" a space for you.

It feels like your best bet is to take the 2 places and go on waiting lists/appeal while you temporarily juggle 2 schools. Also it might be easier to wait until your Y2 child reaches Y3 age, as it's easier to win an appeal in Y3 (no infants class size rule).

The school won't hold places open

I wouldn't say this definitively. They shouldn't but some schools will be willing to do so.

Hm, so the Catholic school was told by a yr 2 parent they are moving abroad after summer term, that's why they know they'd have a yr 2 (of this year)place then, and they have places for the other two now. I think what you are saying is someone else could come in and take any or all of those spots and I'd have the same problem? And its the schools decision if I can wait for the appeals before taking up the places, I feel that's less risky because they have more spaces than I want in those classes.
This feels like one of those scenarios where Id like to skip ahead and just have someone tell me what happened. Hate uncertainty!
Thank you all!

I’d move the two now to the secular school then put the 3rd on the waiting list and appeal
Presumably you’d be near top of waiting list once the siblings started so a place may come up anyway
You could appeal now and again in sept if you don’t win the appeal - you can appeal once each academic year and as said above, more chance of winning a KS2 appeal. Note though that you appeal FOR your preferred school and not against the current one. Appeal panel will not be interested in bad behaviour/mould or anything else at current school but will want to know why new school is the best one for your child (logistics also not taken into account I’m afraid)

If you definitely want to move then do it now as schools may not hold spaces open until sept and if current school is experiencing lots of problems you may find others feel as you do and move their children and quickly there are no spaces in nearby schools (this happened to us locally where there are 3 primaries - 1 went downhill very rapidly, loads of parents moved their children and the other 2 schools became completely full....better to go first and be sure of places)
Good luck!

Moves can fall through though, I wouldn't count on the space until it is available.

Thank you all, I was advised by the county to put applications in for both schools, that then the schools could decide if they wanted to accept an extra child in year 2, and I can appeal should I want/need to accordingly, I have put both in and figure that will give me some time and options rather than risk someone else getting in before me and taking a place that is currently available. When they come back to me I will then at least know who actually is going to offer me a place for each boy, where, and when, and be able to discuss the appeal if need be.

Many thanks for your replies!