Parents with highly able students at James Allens or Alleyns

[LondonGirl83]

We are fortunate to live in an area with a number of terrific state primaries. My husband and I are trying to decide if our DD would benefit from us paying for private education at either of the above schools.

I have a fried who is a governor at one of the highly regarded state primaries and they’ve explained that budget cuts mean that while the school is great at stretching and challenging the top 10 percent (regarding national outcomes) , resources won’t stretch to challenge the top 2 percent ( essentially kids who’d have been to achieve Level 6 in the old system). They do lots of work with their child outside of school to make sure they are challenged and learn how to study and develop resilience for when the work gets harder in secondary and doesn’t come as naturally easy for them.

Both Alleyns and Jags seem to have special learning plans for the children that fall into this academic level based on their very old inspections and the information on their websites.

I’m just curious if any parents with children like this at either school believe the schools are good at developing a plan for challenging their children?

We have to make applications this year and while it’s still too early to say how bright our DD she has always been very developmentally advanced so we are exploring all the options.

I know a few parents with kids at Dulwich private schools (jags, alleys, DC - the latter.obviously not relevant if you have a dd). I would say they do a good job of stretching more able students. Obviously the schools are fairly selective so they'll have an above average cohort anyway (selection at 11+ is certainly far from perfect though and many are tutored so they're not always as bright as the selection might suggest).

I would say jags might be a more natural choice for an across the board studious girl who just likes to get on with things quietly. If you have a child with a particular interest and exceptional ability in a particular subject (Eg doing maths challenge papers and scoring well) then you should look carefully at the department at each school.

Either way unless you're very lucky with your state option (Eg great grammar) either school would be worthwhile I think for a bright student).

Sorry just realised your DD would be primary not secondary I think the above still applies. The selection is even less effective at 4+ so while the cohort will be above average (and perhaps more placid in temperament) they are unlikely to be all exceptional. There's such a range in development and maturity at that age its just impossible to determine who is very bright and who is an early reader because they developed slightly earlier.

Thanks, that's really helpful.

Yes im not sure how much difference the ability to read early makes.
Because mostly reading is practised at home so actually maths learning at school is more useful. And then reading becomes comprehension and creative writing which an early reader is not necessarily top at.
But i would say having a bright dc in a state school she hasnt been stretched and may only be top 10%.
The maths was more stretching but i think that's the odd way it's taught and focus on number bonds etc.
I would say that in each class of 30 there are at least 2 challenging children (but that if they have sen would be unclear as some schools are not good at identifying and with say dyslexia will not pay to test.
Our school is pretty full with classes 28+. I think kids can be rather left to sink or swim. Eg parents cant get to see SENCo and even if they do actions are not followed up.

I would agree that there is little to stretch the top 2% in most state schools. In the schools you mention there'll be smaller class sizes and like a PP said on average a brighter bunch of kids from families who value education, read at home etc. Also more opportunities for drama, music, sport etc. Remember though that at 5 it won't be obvious where your DC will be in 5 years time. A precocious early talker/reader/writer might be fairly average at age 10 so be wary of schools which are too pressured.

JAGS tends to be more formal and slightly more pressured (although not outrageously so from what I hear - but certainly more than average). Alleyn's is obviously mixed and slightly more relaxed but still with high standards. Whether your child will benefit enough to make the money worth while definitely depends what their abilities and personality end up being like. Do they worry under pressure? Do they just coast along in the crowd if there's no pressure? Can you at home provide a bit extra in the way of music, sport and also academics? How much of a stretch would the fees be and could you also afford secondary?

The fees wouldn't be a stretch but I can think of a hundred other things I could do with the money if it wasn't worth it including helping her out with buying a house when she's older / us retiring younger!

I think its hard to tell before 7 where children will be academically-- by then ability starts to be easier to predict. Equally I'd rather not put her through the pressure of 7+ entry if we can get in for reception in what is a much less pressured process for the kids. She's only 3 but applications for reception need to be made this autumn and a decision with deposits in December or January I think so I'm trying to do my research now.

She's very, very social (has lots of friends and makes them easily in new settings) and in a group she plays along like every other child her age though she's bossy and slightly prefers playing with older children. At home she pushes herself not just with academic things but everything-- insisting on completely dressing herself, making her own breakfast, begging us to teach her how to tie her shoes etc. I'd say she has grit. I'm not sure she's ever been under any pressure so I have no idea how she'd cope. Her keyworkers at nursery and preschool have consistently told us she makes up her own activities / games if she thinks the planned activity is boring and won't just join in. They say this in a nice way (isn't she creative!) but I suspect she'll act up in school if bored. She's well behaved but not naturally docile which means she might fail the 4+ anyway from what I've read!

From what you say I would apply to JAPs and Alleyns at 4 plus and see how she gets on. If you can afford it, go for it. We did a mix of state and independent/grammar with all of ours. I had to move 1 academically gifted out of state primary because he was too bored in class. It was an outstanding state primary by all accounts but he was so much more challenged at the independent school - in lots of ways, top maths set across the year group, 3 instruments, sports, chess, creative writing etc. - he was kept very busy by being stretched sideways. However, another of my children (equally bright) was fine in state primary as was good at self challenging and just making her work perfect/going deeper on her own. So as someone above said, it depends on the personality of your child and from your description your DD has a wonderful big personality and if you can afford it, go for it. Plus anything to avoid 7 plus and 11 plus- the tests are always tedious and the process can be random.

As regards Alleyns vs JAPs when I looked (years ago though so this could all have changed significantly) - the girls school had a much more academic vibe and Alleyns was more relaxed and more like state primary. As Alleyns is so hard to get into at 11 plus I think some people would chose it for that reason alone at 4 plus. When I looked the reception room was very cramped (especially compared to some of the state primaries I had seen), but as the class size was so low, I did come away thinking that the children would get plenty of attention and that it would be worth it. If you can, please have a look at the senior schools for both schools too. Some people very much identify with one more than the other. It is also down to best fit for the family as so hard to tell at 3 what they will be like later.

We've visited Alleyns junior school but not JAPs yet. My husband also thought the reception classrooms were small though I hadn't noticed. JAPs does have a local reputation of being more academic despite being easier to get into at 4+ as it has double the places and is single sex so 35 places for girls vs just 9-10 at Alleyns for girls.

I'd not be concerned if she wasn't already so advanced and always has been. She started speaking at 8 months and was speaking in complex sentences of 10 plus words at 17 months old. By 15 months just through play with games and puzzles and books she'd learned all her letters, colours, shapes and numbers and could actually count objects. She's still just as developmentally advanced now she's 3 so I'm just not sure what she'd be like in a school that wasn't able to differentiate work adequately if she stays on her current trajectory.

Good tip for us to look at the senior schools too assuming we are lucky enough to get a choice between the two. 4+ is such a lottery nothing is guaranteed. I know kids who didn't get in at 4+ but sailed through the more academic selection process at 7 at these schools.

Haha - yes it is a bit of a lottery! In New York, some kids are tutored for Kindergarten entry. If your DD likes drawing, get her to draw in detail with eye brows and things like that she can describe. Recount and respond to a story - comprehension style questions. From what I remember they look for eagerness to learn and respond in an appropriate way, fine motor skills, advanced understanding and advanced verbal and social skills in these types of assessments. But if they have a high number of applications and your kid goes in kicking and screaming for whatever reason, then yep, not ideal.

Thanks for the tips. She already draws people with eyebrows, ears and eyelashes (though not always bodies!). I think she's capable of all of that really so it'll really depend on what mood she's in on the day and if she likes to look of the place and people. She'll still only be 3 when the assessments come around...

She'll be starting at Herne Hill soon so if she doesn't get in, we can always try again at 7+ and if she turns out not to be that academic send her to state school then if we can get a place.

LondonGirl83 "and if she turns out not to be that academic send her to state school" ... really!

Yes really! I think that my local state options are excellent and any child up to the top 90th centile would do very well in them. Children who are more academically gifted than that I think would benefit from the specific gifted programs that exist in my local private primaries. But if my DD isn’t very academically gifted I think she’ll thrive at our local state options so why would I pay?

Not sure what shocks you about that moominmammacat