Is this typical at school now, or am I unlucky?

[Ridingthegravytrain]

I apologise if I phrase this badly, this is no way a thread bashing the way things are handled by teachers or behaviour of pupils but as I don’t have experiences of other schools I don’t know if this is just typical of what happens in many classes now...

I have two children in different years in a small village primary school and on almost a daily basis they both come home telling me about disruptions in class. And by this I mean chairs and tables being kicked and thrown and the children needing to be restrained (I volunteer and have witnessed this) and the children having to be all taken out of class until things are calmed down.

I have also had form teachers speak to me along the lines of “I just need to let you know your DD was unable to leave the toilet as there was a child outside doing XYZ and she was too scared to leave, just in case she mentions it to you”. Speaking to parents with children in other years it seems to occur across most classes.

Just wondering what other people’s experiences are with this level of disruption as it’s getting to the point where I’m considering getting on a waiting list to move them, but I have no idea of the likelihood that it will happen wherever we go. Have I just been unlucky?

As a PP mentioned it terrible for the children that they aren’t getting whatever support they need to the extent that this is how they lash out almost daily. They must feel awful.

The school may not be telling her as they know they will then be expected to put support into place. Often the parents who shout the loudest get the most hope for their children.
Of course it may also be a case of the parent not wanting to talk about it to you.

You may be unlucky if both of your children have had experiences like this, but it is quite common. There are several children at my dc school who have very disruptive behaviour and the whole class has had to leave the room (bar the people child) on several occasions due to child overturning tables and throwing chairs.

This has happened at all three of the primaries I've been involved in - all in a very affluent area, all 'Good' or 'Outstanding' schools, ranging from the tiny to the huge. It tends to come in waves, depending on the children in the school at the time. The average percentage of children with SEN in schools is now around 18% - obviously with huge variations from school to school and in the level of severity of the need. Budget cuts mean that additional funding for one to one support has been slashed, and most classes no longer have a dedicated general TA. Waiting times for assessment and involvement from outside agencies can be months or years long. Rules around exclusion are pretty strict. Special schools are full to bursting. It's no surprise that these incidents are becoming more commonplace.

Incidentally, IME these types of incident are not necessarily a sign of a bad school - conversely, it can be a sign that a school really cares about every one of its students, and that it will do absolutely everything it can to help its most high-need children. It can indicate a really dedicated and caring SLT who take their responsibilities very seriously. Sometimes the schools that don't have these kinds of issues are the ones that will play all sorts of games to avoid having high-need pupils on roll - like telling prospective parents that they're not very well-equipped to cater for children with additional needs (unlike X school down the road), or bend the rules around exclusion, or deliberately antagonise parents until they remove their children. Knowing that the result is that higher-need students are gradually filtered down to the least-oversubscribed schools, creating a downward spiral for these schools that leaves them less and less able to cope with such students.

In your case OP, I would be looking at how the school is performing generally, and for your child, rather than necessarily reacting specifically to these incidents. I would be amazed if the school wasn't speaking to the parent in question about their child's behaviour - I imagine the parent just doesn't want to talk about it. Don't get me wrong, it may be that the right thing to do is to move your child, but not necessarily. My son was in a class with two children with this type of behaviour problem most of the way through primary. I honestly don't think it affected his own academic achievement - he did extremely well - but I do think that it helped him to develop a certain kind of resilience, as well as an empathy with children who aren't lucky enough to be as 'straightforward' as him. But every situation is different - you have to judge what's right for your own child.

A relative is leaving teaching mid year. They are an experienced teacher but feel unable to support two pupils with additional needs adequately nor to teach the rest of the class. No support from senior managers.

I have a child with additional needs who will have to go to a mainstream school because there are so few places at specialist settings he won’t get a place. He will be disruptive and need restraining I’m sure. It will be traumatic for everyone, most of all him!

On the other hand I have 2 other children with no additional needs and some of the stories I get from DS in Yr4 are absolutely horrific. Children being assaulted on a regular basis and others scared to come in to school at all. The whole class is struggling and the poor teacher looks like she’s about to have a breakdown.

I feel so so sorry for her but don’t know what can be done.

As far as I am aware it’s a funding crisis and the complete lack of specialist provision.

I have wondered about moving my DS but I doubt it would be much different elsewhere and I really do love the school.
It’s a C of E small village school in an affluent area with lots of community support. The building is amazing and they have a fab sensory room which can be used as a safe space for those who need it. The environment couldn’t be better.

I've experienced 2 primary schools with my DC, both affluent areas, one a village c of e school and I've never known of any such thing going on.
The village school does seem to have a higher number of unpleasant children which the school doesn't seem able to handle though.

Hi OP. Firstly, this amount of disruptive behaviour isn’t normal. When I was working for my LA, over 20 years ago, I had a budget to give to schools so they could employ TAs for such children who didn’t have “statement” yet. That funding is now devolved to schools. I had a team of 13 peripatetic learning support teachers for 90 schools. We had Behaviour specialist teachers. That funding has now been devolved to schools. Therefore schools must buy in the support and expertise they need. But they don’t when budgets are tight. We had 6 Ed Psychs for our area schools. There were waits to see them but all needy children did see them and sometimes when they were very young so we were prepared for their needs in yr. we also had outreach from specialist teachers from our special schools. Invaluable.

It is also true to say that some village schools are seen as havens by parents whose DC have needs. They think their DCs behaviour will improve by being with well behaved DC in a shall school. It’s not a new idea. Often these schools are the worst choice. Chaos ensues. They can be very short of behaviour expertise and SEN strategies. You seem to have a perfect storm in a village school. Have these DC all been to a nursery and YR at the school? They should have been known about and strategies put in place. We had regular reports from nurseries and social services regarding DC who needed extra help at school.

If you find your school has not been able to keep DC safe, I would move them. The mum most definitely would have known the issues with her DC at school and the school needs to be far more proactive in dealing with these DC. What is the Head doing? Is there any evidence that the Head or the Behaviour lead is intervening? If not, that’s poor leadership.

DC can go to special schools for behaviour if they still exist. Many LAs closed them. Parents wanted inclusion. The primary school must try and deal with their issues first though and getting a place at a special school is never instantaneous and rarely for the very young. We used to run nurture groups for young DC like this and that would be a big step foreword but I’ve no doubt that these have disappeared too.

Often schools in deprived areas do understand behaviour better and have better staff and leadership to cope. This behaviour is not just about deprivation. It can be all types of DC and families. I do think it’s reasonable to expect your DC to feel safe and it’s reasonable to ask what the school are doing to enable this to happen. You won’t get info about the disruptive DC but you can ask about your DC and their feelings and needs. Hope this helps.

Also look at the behaviour and sanctions policy to inform yourself of what the school should do. Also the send policy.

I have taught classes like this. It is very emotionally draining for the class teacher and other children. Getting 1:1 support or special school spaces for these children is nigh on impossible. All comes down to lack of funding.

My son was in a big primary and this never happened.

The only time I've heard of this level of disruption was a boy who had asd (there are a number of children with asd in this particular school but this one boy particularly struggled with violent outbursts). Even though he had a 1-1 (she was a ta but not an asd expert) and was bright academically the class room was just a very difficult environment for him. Ultimately his parents moved him to a school with a specialist unit as it was clear he/the school weren't coping.

This has happened at all the schools i have experienced but some are much worse than others. It is generally poorly supported /managed SEN. Some schools are much better at de-escalating situations or preventing them with good support than others. But as budgets get cut this will happen more as its not just reduced staff but reduced expertise, reduced training, reduced access to outside support.

By the way, even when funding seemed more generous, I had very few DC with 1:1 TA support. It wasn’t usual even then. Having been a governor for many years, 1:1 funding without a EHCP is now impossible.

Thank you so much for all the information and personal experiences. I think I will take the advice and look into all the school policies. I am also a very good friend with one of the governors so will chat to her again about it. And probably speak to the school. As even if I decide to move, as you all know, it can take ages with over subscriptions.

Some schools are much better at de-escalating situations or preventing them with good support than others.

Unfortunately it's often 'lovely', 'good' middle class schools where the staff clutch their pearls over challenging behaviour rather than roll their sleeves up and work at pragmatic solutions.

Definitely not normal. Really quite worrying.

Every school has some children who have a range of issues resulting in this sort of behaviour at times, however schools where it is happening frequently across the board are generally very poorly managed IME. I worked in a school where this happened several times a day. I was assaulted several times. The management was appalling, didn't give a shit. I'm glad to be out of there but feel for the remaining staff and pupils trying to learn in that environment.

Very unlucky! I've met two children in almost thirty years of teaching who displayed the type of behaviour you describe. To have it in almost every class seems extreme.

It's not uncommon OP

That was my nephew in mainstream school. He had a diagnosis before he started school with a history of needing lots of support in nursery but the local authority said his needs could be met within the mainstreams schools budget.
Eventually in year 1 a ehcp was applied for with the recommendation of special school but they were all full so instead he was permanently excluded. He was out of school for 6 months until the local authority backed into a corner by the parents going to sen tribunal found a place at a special school.
Sen provision is massively underfunded although some mainstream schools are better at supporting children than others.

I disagree with some PP that these incidents always suggest bad management. You can have all the training and strategies you like, but if you have a child who really struggles to cope in a mainstream environment, then these incidents will still happen. Undoubtedly they will happen less than they would in a school that doesn't have a good SEN team, and they will be handled better, but the best SENCO in the world can't just prevent these kinds of outbursts 100%. Sometimes it will be a case of waiting until the child is either permanently excluded or is found a place in special provision - but that can take months or years. But let's not forget there are success stories too. In my kids' school there was a child with high functioning ASD who started having these kinds of outbursts very regularly. Following a lot of intensive work by the SENCO and by outside agencies, the outbursts reduced to almost zero. The child is now flying at an outstanding, academically selective school and copes incredibly well. If that child had been permanently excluded or sent to a special unit I cannot imagine that their outcome would have been the same. But yes, it did mean the primary school having to manage a few very tricky months of outbursts before they turned it around.

So good management and strategies did improve the DC! That’s what we were saying. You must have this ability in a school to cope effectively. Where Heads just don’t have this expertise or leave it up to individual teachers, there isn’t improvement and teachers find better jobs. Good management minimises these incidents. When the behaviour is so extreme, DC need special schools, but the Head still has to manage that DC in school or PE, as many will do. Just leaving a teacher to cope is never acceptable.

It happens at our large inner city school but it's not on a daily or weekly basis like you describe.

we have at least 3 in our school 1 has some educational needs and 2 others is behaviour/parenting rule the roost and run the ta's ragged all 3 have got away with stuff that other children have been excluded for

Yes absolutely good management improves things, but my point is that even with good management, you can still have these incidents occurring - because good management can't prevent all incidents, and because strategies can take time to work. My point was just that incidents occurring is not in itself evidence of bad management - and can be a sign of good management where an SLT is trying to help the child(ren) in question rather than getting them out of the door ASAP and making them someone else's problem.