In-year primary admissions, HELP!

[FreiasBathtub]

I'm tearing my hair out over this one. We are moving from an inner London to outer London borough and DD, who started Reception this September, needs a new school place.

I have found a school that I like. The school tells me it has a place. No waiting list. I phoned the council to find out how to apply from my current address in advance of the move. No dice, they say. You must wait until you move and have proof that you and your child live at your new address before we will even consider you for a place at the school. Closing statement for our current council tax account at the old house isn't good enough. Nor is confirmation of exchange on the new house. How long will the process take from application, I ask? We are unable to tell you. Ballpark? At least four weeks, and don't listen to the school when they tell you they have a place as they are almost always wrong.

Can this possibly be right? What is my DD supposed to do for school during those four weeks? Are we supposed to commute her an hour each way every day to her old school? We are lucky I suppose in that this is an option - but what if we were moving from Newcastle or Exeter? Are we supposed to rent in our old borough and pay a mortgage in the new one until her place comes up?

I understand that the council needs to ensure parents can't game the system to get into a popular school, but this is crazy. Is it normal or is the new council unusually unhelpful? Does anyone have experience that they can share, or tell me what they did during a similar waiting period? I'm going mad trying to figure it out!

It is now starting to get complicated. It may well be the case that the LA are aware of a pupil who had a higher admission criteria to your child and that is the reason why they are saying there is no place. Having said that it is clear that when you first applied to the school, the school had no knowledge of this other pupil or they would have said so. It is also clear that they were still unaware of this pupil until this morning.
It therefore comes down to a question of how is an in-year application handled in your LA. The law says that the LA have to hold the admissions waiting list until the 31st December for reception pupils, so it might be possible that they knew about this pupil before you applied on the 11 November and as such they would have priority. However the fact that they have only informed the school this morning questions whether any official admission request had been made before today.
If that is the case then you have a good case to go to appeal and say you have been disadvantaged by the LA not progressing your application on the 11th November. It would also be useful to know whether the pupil who appears to be being admitted instead of your child is a LAC . If they were a LAC then they could be admitted as an excepted pupil as a 31st pupil in the classroom, which would be the same for pupils with an EHC Plan and therefore they could have admitted your child as pupil 30 and then the other child as excepted 31st pupil. But pupils who are admitted under social / medical need are only admitted if there is a spare place and therefore it comes back down to when were the LA aware of this pupil needing a place.
Say to the LA you will take this to appeal if you are not offered a place and that you require to know under what category the other child was admitted. If you go to appeal they will have to disclose that anyway and when they were aware of the pupil.

Thank you so much prh47bridge and admission. It is getting crazier by the minute. I had an email this morning telling me that I need to make a new application using the application form for reception 2019/20 i.e. not even an in-year application. This is clearly madness.

I phoned to ask what was going on and was told that this is correct, also that there is no second offer letter on the way (contrary to what I was told yesterday).

So I have emailed requesting information about the last admitted pupil, when that application was made etc. But I have absolutely no faith that I will get an accurate answer to this either.

I don't know what else I can do. I believe the call to the school yesterday came from social services, not from the admissions team, so I don't even know whether a formal application has been made. I don't think the school has been formally approached by the admissions team about either DD or this other child. Is it possible that the place would be held for the other child without a formal application being made? That doesn't seem fair to me but at this point fairness doesn't seem to have much to do with it.

It feels as though all of this could have been avoided if I'd just made the application back in October when I first wanted to, but was advised not to by the LA. But I just didn't know. And sadly that advice was given on the phone, not in writing, so I suspect won't be admissable on appeal.

What a mess.

There is no problem with saying at any appeal that you were misled in October and this was the first time this happened. Only later did I get some advice that showed that the LA were giving me poor advice. Obviously the LA will be saying something totally different but it would be interesting to ask the LA what evidence they have that confirms their version of events. If their records are immaculate then they will have recorded the conversation and sent you a confirmation of the advice give. Alternatively they will be in the same situation as you and the panel will have to make their own mind up as to who they believe more.
I would strongly disagree with what you are being told. As soon as 1st September happens, every new application for a place is an in-year application. If you fill in their 2019 application form, you will be classes as a late application not a new application and will be dated when they receive the application, which will clearly be after the date of the other application.

This is silly. You have applied already, as evidenced by the fact that they have not admitted you to the school you want and have been offered somewhere else instead. If I was being uncharitable, I would wonder if they are making you apply again so that they can fudge the dates and say you applied after the other child. They certainly shouldn't be trying to delay your application so that someone else can get in ahead of you.

Right now you are in a strong position. You have applied for a school that has a place available. Make it clear to the LA that, if they continue to play games, you want an appeal where your case will be simple - the academy had a place available when you applied and there were no other applications so you should have been offered the place. The only way the LA can justify their position would be if the other application came in before yours or at around the same time. If, as appears to be the case, it came in significantly after yours (and may still not have come in) there is absolutely no justification I can see for failing to offer you the place.

Well I think this might be the end of the road. Talked to the school again today and they've been told not to communicate directly with me any more. Apparently the child in question was offered a place for September but I guess never turned up? And has just resurfaced? So most likely there was never a place in the first instance. Is it at all likely that the school would have thought the place was available when in fact it wasn't?

I really don't know where we go from here. There are no alternatives in the area apart from the terrible school. Private isn't really an option, financially.

Thanks again to everyone for the help and support on this thread. You all really kept me going, I feel like at least I've explored every avenue. The fates weren't with us.

Oh no, sorry to here that. Are you on the waiting list for the school you like? I guess there’s still a possibility that the child won’t turn up at all and they will reallocate the place

Otherwise, I would suggest getting on the waiting list for any acceptable school. Is it an option to commute back to the old school or homeschool until something comes up?

Not sure where you go in terms of the need for an immediate school place but i would insist in writing to the LA that you are put on the waiting list for the school and that they detail what the procedure is in terms of waiting lists from January 1st - they do not have to keep a formal list after that time.
The other thing I would do, as you have nothing to loose, is to formally appeal for a place at the school. If nothing else it make the LA think a bit about what has happened and if you can put enough evidence in front of the appeal panel I think there is a real chance that they will believe that you have been disadvantaged by what has happened.
To follow up the comments that you have just received, I think that the LA is probably right to be telling the school not to talk to you in that there does need to be one voice from their side, not two or more, causing more and more confusion.
In terms of what has now been said, there is no way that the LA should have been holding the school place open if the pupil did not start in September when there was an agreement that they were supposed to start then. They would certainly not allow that of any other parent. However parents are allowed to agree with the school to start later, that is after Christmas if the parents do not feel they are mature enough to start at school. That agreement would leave the school place open until the agreed starting date but given that the school were obviously unaware of this pupil, it seems to me that something has been going on behind the scenes internally in the LA. Your application for the place has obviously created an issue for them but they need to accept that the admission rules apply to them, as corporate parents, as well as any other parent like yourself. The question that the school and LA need to answer is whether the pupil was a registered pupil of the school on the day that you applied for the place. If not they had no place at the school.

I agree with Admission. If the issue is that this child didn't turn up in September they should not have been holding the place for them. However, if the parents asked to defer admission the place should have been held. If nothing else, appealing will clear up exactly what has happened here and whether or not the LA has behaved appropriately.

Oh wow, thank you so much. admission I completely agree about the single voice. The only reason I was talking to the school at all is because the LA were giving me inaccurate information and I hoped I might get something more sensible out of the school. But it seems as though nobody really knows what's going on!

But I now have a meeting with someone at the LA on Wednesday. This person works in the back office, unlike everyone else I've spoken to so far, which apparently makes a difference - they don't allow the back office to talk to parents on the phone but I believe they are the ones who actually manage the details of the process.

So it sounds as though I need to ask a few key questions prior to lodging an appeal. First, when was this child offered a place and when did she take it up? If she did not take it up, when was that place withdrawn? If it was withdrawn, when was the new application received and the place reoffered? Is it permissible to ask for evidence of all these events? Is there a way to do it without compromising the child's anonymity?

Then I also need to ensure that DD remains on the waiting list past the end of December, and that she is added to the waiting list for the other local schools we would be happy for her to go to. The LA say I can only be on three waiting lists - is that right?

Thanks again, seriously.

The LA will definitely not indicate the name or any other information about the other child except potentially that they are a Looked after child.
I am sure that the LA will not be very keen on answering your questions, which are exactly the questions to be asking. However they also have to realise that if you go to appeal that these are exactly the questions that they will have to answer. Asking the questions can only help in that the LA will realise that this is not going to go away anytime soon, so they may do something about it. If the LA disclose that this is a LAC then I would make the point to them that they can admit you as the 30th pupil in the class and then admit the LAC as 31st child as they are allowed to do for any LAC who is an in-year admission.
I suspect that next week's meeting will not result in you seeing any evidence but again you should make the point that given they have given you so many different versions of events that you will be raising with the appeal panel that your evidence shows the lack of proper paperwork to substantiate the LA's case.
In theory there is no limit to how many schools you can be on the waiting list for. However I do know that some LA's IT system only have the ability to register 3 schools on the waiting list, so it could be correct but not legally correct.

I’m in a complete dilemma!
My DS2 is still in primary school, a lovely village school, but 10 miles away from home (both DS went there through choice)
However, I have a v poorly husband, who once again cannot drive for another year, and we have been back & forth to hospital with him.
DS1 goes to a local secondary & gets himself there & back.
I am reliant on the help of other parents (I can’t call them ‘friends’ as such) to help on the odd occasion, take & collect ds2.
As it’s 10 miles away & I work from home, some weeks I can do 200 miles on just school run, to work from home!🤷‍♀️

In the summer, we made an application to put ds2 in a local primary & Out of the blue, I got a call last week to say they have a place.

We had a look around the school & it’s nice, much, much bigger, but lots of activities.
We’ve made a decision to move him & now I’m panicking.

We don’t know anyone there who can help us out if we are stuck (ie if I have to take my husband to hospital) my son knows a few people there, but not their parents.

The new school is 3 mins away, so much closer & logically it makes sense to move him there.
But I’m in turmoil as to what to do/have done.
Suggestions & thoughts welcome.

You need to be thinking about the longer term situation. You do not say what year DS2 is in primary school. If they are in Y5 or 6 then I think that your concerns are not warranted as they will be going to secondary school in the near future, where you are happy to allow DS1 to go on their own, so a 3 minute walk on their own is not unrealistic.

If however DS2 is say in reception or year 1 then you do need to think through a bit more how DS2 could get to school with outside help. However you will have the same issue if you stay at the current school, so I think you are over-thinking this and should just get DS2 into the new school without you transmitting your concerns to him.

DS2 is in year 5. One Minute he wants to swap school, the next he is worrying about missing his friends.
I know children are resilient, it’s the big leap into the unknown that worries me, especially when the current school is small and very nurturing.

I’m viewing it more as a ‘middle school’ move, I’m preparation for secondary.
A 3 minute drive compared to 20 is going to make a huge difference to our day.

I wanted to come back and update this thread as you've all been so kind and helpful.

I met some people from the LA admissions team today. After a bumpy start I think we finally got somewhere.

It turns out that I have been misinformed by both the school and the LA at various points! There was always a waiting list for our preferred school (despite the LA telling me previously there wasn't) and DD is now number 1 on it.

As to the mystery place - nobody can tell me for sure but it seems that the most likely thing is that the other child was offered it, never showed up, and somewhere along the line the procedures for referral, intervention and release of the school place broke down. So the school thought the child was not registered and the LA believed she was. Apparently the final say is with the LA, even though the school is an academy. So I think we just have to wait and see what happens with that. I guess my application must have dranlwn someone's attention to the systems failure.

So the long and short of it is - we still don't have a place at our preferred school but at least have a better understanding of what probably happened. I'm guessing that I wouldn't have grounds for an appeal, based on this new information.

The LA did also let me know that they have places at another local school. It's a bus ride away from our house but in a more helpful direction for us, and a better school. So we are now trying to decide whether to move DD there until a place at one of our three acceptable schools comes up (how long is a piece of string?) or keep her in her current school until that happens. It's very hard to know what to do for the best.

We moved within London. We waited until we moved in before we did our application and yes, I drove my dc to their old school...one hour each way. It was hellish but only for a short time.

Apparently the final say is with the LA, even though the school is an academy

No, the LA doesn't have the final say. The school has the final say. The school holds the admission register, not the LA (to be precise, the regulations say it is held by the proprietor of the school). If the school has removed a child from the admission register in accordance with the regulations it doesn't matter what the LA thinks - that child is no longer a pupil. So there was a place and someone has taken it. The question is whether that place was allocated correctly. If you were at the head of the waiting list when the place became available it should have been offered to you.

I'm guessing that I wouldn't have grounds for an appeal, based on this new information

If I were you, I would appeal. What do you have to lose? At the very least it is complex with misinformation from all angles. You might uncover something relevant or have a sympathetic panel.

Have to agree with PRH that the final say on registration lies with the school. If they say that the other child is not registered then they are not registered. That means that there are only 29 pupils in the year group and therefore a place available or another pupil has been sneaked in at some stage at which point an appeal is appropriate, especially given the total shambles that seems to exist in the allocation of places.
I might be tempted to ask the question of the school to confirm in writing how many pupils there are in the year group , who are registered and just see what the response is. Is it 29 or 30.

I'm back. Can't believe this is STILL dragging on.

So. The school have confirmed that the missing pupil has now started with them. Which is of course a really good result for this poor kid, so that's something. I'm not inclined to make too much of a fuss as if an appeal did find that the child was not on roll back in October when I first started talking to the school, and that the place should therefore have been offered to someone else, it wouldn't be offered to DD as she wouldn't have been on the waiting list at that point.

So we now have another issue. The LA, I think, are going to offer us a place at the inconvenient, not great school. Fine. We will take it as a stopgap. But they close their waiting lists on 1 Jan and we need to make a fresh in-year application to go back onto the lists for our preferred schools. The LA are very clear that they don't support children moving between schools once they've started somewhere and you have to get permission from your current school to switch. This is not the case if you accept a non-preferred school and are subsequently offered a place at the preferred one. But I cannot get a straight answer out of them as to whether we would be seen as being in this position if we've made a fresh application to the waiting lists on 1 Jan, rather than having stayed on them from our original application in November.

Logic says that it should be fine. But I now know better than to trust in logic. Is it legal for an authority to refuse a school move even if you are on the waiting list? Any guidance would be so appreciated, as this situation is now so crazy that I can't trust anything that comes from the LA (and they are perfectly capable of telling me four different things before lunchtime).

The LA are very clear that they don't support children moving between schools once they've started somewhere and you have to get permission from your current school to switch

Far too many LAs try this one. They cannot do this. It is a clear breach of the Admissions Code. Paragraph 2.21. is clear that, "Any parent can apply for a place for their child at any time to any school outside the normal admissions round." The LA cannot make this conditional on getting permission from the current school.

Sorry, I don’t have anything useful to add, but I remember reading your thread back when you first posted and can’t believe you still haven’t got straight (or seemingly legally accurate!) answers!

I'm back! With what I dearly hope will be a final update, as DD started at her preferred school this morning. A Christmas miracle! We heard from the school on the last day of term that a space was going to be available from January, and then had frantic wrangling with the LA to get it allocated to DD before the waiting lists were wiped clean on 31 December. But it all seems to have finally worked out.

Thank you all again for your considerable expertise and general support over the past couple of months. It really, really helped!

Great news. Glad its sorted.

Which does say something for not giving up. Good on you for continuing to fight forth place you wanted.