Small class sizes in deprived area school

[user1374384]

There is a school in my catchment that is in a very deprived area, over half of pupils on FSM and very poor attendance. A parent I know has moved their child there from a very sought after over subscribed school because the deprived area school has very low numbers and small class sizes. I've done some investigating and the class sizes average about 12 pupils, which really is tiny for the city. I believe there are only 10 in the current reception class. If you add to this the low attendance, the class sizes must be really small (even though I know in theory low attendance affects other pupils nevatively).

On the downside there is a big issue with smoking and spitting parents outside that might sound precious but really puts me off. I don't want my asthmatic child having to walk through smoke and have smoking normalised by seeing it every day. The school is also next to an A road, with the playground next to it so the lack of fresh air is also a consideration in terms of asthma. My son is more likely to be affected by large class sizes and more opportunity to spread viruses however.

What is everyone's opinion on this, is the small class size more beneficial than the deprived intake?

I know I may get a flaming for sounding snobby but as a parent I have experience of different types of schools already and know they all come with advantages and disadvantages and I've not found the right mix yet. The affluent area school I have personal experience of was excellent educationally, but exhausting socially and not right for my SEN child. The mixed intake school was just too huge (75+ children per year group) and impersonal. I'm going round in circles trying to decide what is best for younger DC.

A deprived school has way more money than a middle class school - which it seems they are spending on small classes.

It may be an excellent, caring school. With more money than other schools.

Or not.....

The small class sizes aren't deliberate! I'm not sure why it is so unpopular, there are many more applicants to the neighbouring and huge requires improvement school that also has a high deprivation intake. I suppose it's a social thing. This smaller school is also COE (no religious requirements to attend) and the bigger school is non denominational. So that could be it.

It's difficult to tell as it could either way. It could be perfect but you could equally get several challenging children in that class of 12 and it could be very difficult for the teacher. I'd want to see exam results to see if able children are stretched. The ethos/vibe is also very important - is it a place with high expectations and raising the aspirations of pupils or somewhere where the staff have half given up etc.

If the class sizes are small because people aren’t choosing it then I’d worry that it won’t keep going.

They are choosing small classes. They could have a mixed Y1/2 class but they’ve chosen not to.

All classes have 1 or 2 challenging pupils. You won’t have more challenging pupils in a class of 12 than you do in a class of 30.

SEN in most schools is around 30%. You can expect 5 or 6 SEN pupils in a full class.

A deprived school has way more money than a middle class school - which it seems they are spending on small classes

That only applies if the school is full, and the extra funding per student makes up for the missing students, if it's not full, then the extra funding doesn't make up for the lower number of students per teacher.

It's hard to give advice though OP, since small school and class sizes that size are a disadvantage to my values and beliefs on what is good for my child. Class size itself is unlikely to be a defining thing about choosing a school.

Class size is only one aspect of determining whether it's the right school for my child. Are they able to attract and retain great staff? Do they have a good mix of abilities within the class? Are they able to stretch the most able and help any student who is struggling? With such small classes is it likely my child will be able to find like minded friends? What opportunities are they able to offer for enrichment and other off curriculum opportunities? What is the general atmosphere like within the school - does it feel aspirational, are the kids enthused about learning and ambitious about what they can achieve?

Word of warning: they're probably considering merging the year groups in the next year or so,

I'm a governor at a primary school which has a couple of small intakes, and at our last meeting last month the head said we'd almost certainly have to have mixed-age classes at least for the afternoons. Funding is - well, we still don't know, as usual, but the formula is changing and no-one expects the amounts to go up.

Oh, and if they're using Pupil Premium to fund one class per year, they'll get short shrift from Ofsted (you're supposed to be able to demonstrate how it specifically benefits the pupils to whom it applies) so that's unlikely to last long.

And any TAs they get will have lots of PP students to concentrate on (and I don't know how many of you know this, but the first £3000 spent on a child with Additional Needs has to come from the school budget).

My guess would be that they are struggling to attract established teachers. So they are enticing staff with small classes. However I do not know any state school with classes this small. In fact I would say it’s not financially viable for any school.

30% is high for SEND. It’s not the norm. That would be considered high in the majority of schools. In a deprived area it might not be. So is this a concern? The parents would put me off too. Absence is a massive problem. You will find too many disengaged and chaotic families. These have the children who don’t make it into school. The teacher will be spending time trying to get them to catch up. The school will be spending time and money chasing them up about attendance. I would try and avoid a school with these issues.

Quality of leadership and teaching is key in every school. 75 intake isn’t that high. G local Infant school is 120. It’s first class and no child is unknown. Plenty of heads would know each child with an intake of 75 and it means a better spread of abilities. This might not be evident in the deprived area school. Class sizes are not everything if the teaching is poor. I would be wary that these class sizes won’t last (most schools need around 26 or more) due to finance. PP money won’t pay for 12 in a class throughout a school. Nor SEN money that must be used to raise attainment of the individual child. I would want to know how this is funded. 10 in YR is too small and suggests parents won’t use this school and are avoiding it.

Would your DC get Music, drama, sport and a wide curriculum here? What about clubs? It would not be a school I would choose.

I would be very concerned about the financial viability of a school with small classess and what pressures they are under eg merging classes or closing. Id also be worried about things like friendships in a small class and group work as you could end up with very few children at your ability whether its high, middle or low. I also think there are unlikely to be TAs in each class so what happens if a child runs out a room or does have the type of SEN where they are disruptive but support hasnt been secured yet.

Despite saying all that if your child struggles in groups and with noise etc the smaller school might be better for them. There is a school like this near me which is lovely and the governors secured its future for a good few years. Msybe see the school development plan and mitutes to get an idea.

How do governors secure the future for a good few years? School budgets are set every year. Children enrol at a school every year. Falling rolls always means less money. The Governors are not allowed to set a deficit budget so cannot secure the future of a school for a good few years if their budget drops by a huge percentage and they fail to recruit children. They can negotiate to federate with another school but that’s no guarantee a school with a seriously falling roll and budget stays open.

Hi bubbles - It was earmarked for closure as it couldnt find an academy trust to take it over and the LA wanted to close it due to small numbers. There was a lot of public outcry and the school finally persuaded a local church trust who had rejected them previously to take the school on and they had a 3 year moritorium on closure with the aim of increasing roll - which has been working

It will be interesting to see if that continues. I know of very small schools who get DC one year and none the next. It’s very precarious!

Go and see and get the feel for a place.

Could be a poor Ofsted, moving away for jobs, parents perceptions?

They will get additional funding as a small school but they will already have an idea of what will happen. You have to provide a three year budget forecast and they will know the impact of the funding. You might wish to ask the Head what the plan is.

PP children come in all abilities same as non PP children. They are not more likely to be SEN than any other group. Go by what you see and feel. An ideal school for one child can be a nightmare for another.

Try not to listen to parents stories. Parents lie about their child's ability, what the teacher said about the child, meetings with the Head and what they told them, and what level their child is. Go on your gut feeling. You know your own child the best.

I would not put my child in a school like this. For all the reasons that BubblesBuddy writes.

I've worked in such a school- classes are small because people don't want to send their kids there. It was awful and I left rapidly.

DC's primary school is v undersubscribed with a falling roll, despite new housing development in the immediate area. All other schools are at capacity. It's a semi rural area, so most are CoE. Most Popular 2 are community though.

There's now some mixed year groups as they said they couldn't afford to maintain 1 teacher per year. Also lost physical space to the detriment of the reception year.

The school management has been very unstable, also high turnover of class teachers. It's been awful for my child with SEN and I'm now trying to move him. They are firefighting on basics and just don't have the resources or experience to meet his needs.

I sent my eldest with SEN to a v small school because of class size. Unfortunately when there are friendship issues it can get v difficult v quickly. Also that school now has combined year groups too.

so I think my point is, although small classes are appealing, they aren't always guaranteed. And fewer children can make the mix element hard to manage. I think the Head is the crux. I'd always be trying to get a feel for the management side, which can be tricky to get the reality on.

It is not obligatory for a LA to allocate extra money to small schools. Ours does via a minimum funding grant. However this is nowhere near enough to pay for classes of 12 pupils. Every school I know would have to amalgamate classes on those numbers. It’s simply not sustainable to have 12 in a class. We also have a cap on budget reductions due to falling rolls. This doesn’t last forever but gives schools certainty in any “blip” years where intake is low or lots of DC have left. However the principle remains that the AWPU is the main source of funding.

PP funding is given to “close the gap”. Therefore there is an underlying assumption that PP pupils need more help to attain as well as their peers. They are more likely to have needs than other DC. That’s the premise of the funding. Many will not have SEN funded in any other external way. Schools in deprived areas with more PP children are likely to have more children falling behind - hence the need for PP money to close the gap. However this money must be targeted at individual children and a blanket decision to have small classes doesn’t fulfill this requirement.

Our LA produces a 3 year budget forecast for schools. Of course this depends on the overall money the LA expects to have and school rolls come into play year on year as the budget becomes reality because the AWPU is the big budget driver. 3 year forecasts give an indication but it’s difficult to plan 3 years down the line if rolls are falling.

Bottom line with this school is that you need to decide whether there is a long term future for the school before making any decision on sending child there. School finances are based around pupil numbers and with numbers like 10 in reception class it is simply not sustainable. Either the school had a financial surplus at some stage and they are using this up supporting small classes but this can only have a very short time span or they are running a deficit, which the Local Authority should by now be on top of and be making the school solve. It can only be solved by having classes of 30, so it would not be a surprise if there were wholesale class changes for the start of the new academic year next September.
I would treat the school with real concern for its long term viability but the first thing to do is visit and have a conversation with the headteacher and ask them directly how they are affording small classes.

A parent I know has moved their child there from a very sought after over subscribed school because the deprived area school has very low numbers and small class sizes
How is she finding it? I guess she might not want to admit it if she's made a mistake. Did she not like the sought after school?

Low numbers is not a good sign. It means parents aren’t choosing it. It also means that the school is likely to be in financial difficulty as funding is based on ‘bums on seats’. Class sizes should not be your primary reason for choosing a school. There are many, many other factors.