What to do with a more than able Year 5 reader?

[ExpatMomOf1]

Hi all,

I feel like I have been banging my head against a brick wall. I need your help. I’m new to Mumsnet and it is very much a feeling of helplessness bringing me here!

My DC is 9, in a small independent school in London. Last year, her school tested a variety things and came back with: she reads on the level of a 17 year old (at the start of Y3 it was 16 🤷🏻‍♀️). She’s in a class of just 12 students and it feels like they should be able to differentiate for her very, very easily.

But they don’t. And they seem to just defensively fight the idea that she’s operating at an above year level (I was told by her teacher, who moved up with the class, in a caustic tone that she was a “very, very good teacher” who resents the idea that my daughter isn’t being stretched/challenged, but cannot point to a single text that she has assigned that matches my daughter’s abilities as tested by the school).

It’s all just frankly a bit weird. I get that they actively don’t like me and think that I’m the annoying, pushy American, but my kid is super likeable and very bright. But I keep getting fobbed off with “she’s lovely and she’ll be fine in whatever she does, but we don’t think she’s on track for a very academic secondary school.” (I read this as “wife track”, which is fine if that’s what my daughter wants but right now she says she wants to run an advertising agency or be a large animal veterinarian surgeon).

Except, again, she’s 9 and reading on the level of a 17 year old.

I have met with them more times than I can count, including the previous head and previous teachers as well as this head and this teacher. I have sent them links to articles with citations of academic journals from peer reviewed journals on why it is vital to stretch more than able readers from their level. I have begged them to give her reading on her level. Instead she’s being read to, like it’s still story-time in the nursery corner.

What magic words am I missing to get this very, very expensive school to actually teach my child rather than warehouse her? What cultural faux pas am I stumbling over?

Thank you so much for any help!! I just want the best for my kid, as we all do.

-Desperate Expat Mom

She, unsurprisingly, reads all the time at home for pleasure. At the very least, for the hour before bedtime. And most other moments in between when ever she can!

It might be a cultural thing - but I think it might also be a private school issue. In state schools and in the National Curriculum ‘reading for pleasure’ is a big deal and this would be seen as a huge positive. If she’s reading to a standard that exceeds her age expectations and reading for pleasure - great. (You tying to stop her reading for pleasure would be a concern.)

My son aged 9 could read anything I read, Dickens, Plath, the latest Booker prize winner, you name it. He can read it but he can’t understand it.
Was it a word reading test or a reading comprehension test? If it’s a word reading treat then it doesn’t mean much. If a reading comprehension test then she would be working at A level standard of English. That’s what a 17 year old would be doing - analysing and writing essays on Jane Austen, Shakespeare, etc.

I agree that there is a huge difference in ability to read and ability to understand. I guess that’s exactly what I am asking them to work on? They need to give her a text that is challenging but appropriate (which is, obviously difficult but something I’d expect teachers to be equipped for?) - that’s the only way to learn these skills.

@PuffleHuff5: Definitely would never stand in the way of reading for pleasure! That’s why it’s her evening routine! But that’s also why I’d like her school to working on providing her with reading on her level.

Are there not schools who are catering to more than able readers in the UK? I would find that very surprising...

I think the trouble is that your child really isn't exceptional at all. She's normally above average at writing, and average at maths.

She sounds absolutely fine, and obviously has tons of engagement from you which is more important than anything. Make sure she has good stuff to read at home, that she is working on her maths, and read to her yourself. I still read to my son most nights. He's nearly 16 and getting mostly 8s and 9s, but he loves story time. As do I. Sharing my old favourites, and finding new stuff.

And please don't send her teachers peer reviewed literature. How rude!

I think the most valuable thing you can do at this stage is read to her yourself. Reading to your child doesn’t put you in the position of a tutor - it’s a joyous and special thing to do with your child. My DS is also in year 5, and has read quite a few of the classics for his school reading books (Watership Down, Jungle Book etc.) I still read to him every night and he still needs plenty of things explained to him.
Because I was an avid reader as a child, my parents stopped reading to me around age 6 or 7 and I honestly think this had a negative impact on my ability to fully understand what I was reading. I got into the bad habit of skim-reading until I got to more exciting parts of a story. I also found it very difficult to listen to a story rather than read it - it frustrated me to have to slow down, but sometimes that’s necessary! It’s an important skill for secondary.
I think you’ll find when you read to her, you’ll be surprised at what she’s missed. It does sound like she is very bright (I imagine you had more than her reading level tested?), so she’ll pick up what she needs quickly to ‘prove’ to the teachers she is more than capable.

I'm going to hazard a guess that she got this score on the GL Assessment New Group Reading Test? (NGRT? - I think that's what it stands for...)

My daughter was also given a reading age of 17 at the age of 9, and honestly, she's really nothing special at reading. As someone pointed out, the average 17 year old would be working at A-Level standard, and she is absolutely nowhere near. She can read most words fluently, but still stumbles over less common / irregular words; her comprehension is fine for books aimed at primary school kids, but she would be hopelessly lost with the more complex and nuanced themes in teenage fiction, let alone Jane Austen. She's in a non-selective prep school, and this score placed her 4th out a year group of 30. I.e. at least 10% of the year were apparently working at this level or higher.

I still read to her almost every night. She loves it. She's perfectly capable of reading to herself, but there's no doubt that she gets more out of it when I read to her. Removing the need to visually process the text herself seems to leave more capacity for enjoying and thinking about the story. I can imagine that other kids wouldn't like it though - reading aloud does mean the story moves more slowly.

Im not really sure what you want the school to do. Most schools would be pleased shes reading for pleasure and just encourage her to foloow her interests. Job done. Shes reading every day - that's great! Stop worrying!

Slowing down and thinking about a story - which you agree she would benefit from - is exactly what she will be getting from being read to!

My son is an enthusiastic reader, but one thing that I think is standing him in good stead is realising when he's missing aspects of context or subtext, so he often asks us to read him books he's already read, so we can explain the bits that likely went over his head. The teacher reads to the class a couple times a week and the discussions that result seem to be the most educational times of all.

Why on earth would you read not being suitable for a very academic school as ‘wide track’?

FWIW a reading age of 17 doesn’t mean she’s reading at the level of a 17 year old. The school should really have put that into context for you before issuing fairly meaningless scores.

Reading ages aren’t a particularly good way of matching a text to find challenge. I’m not surprised the school couldn’t name a text they’d picked to match a RA of 17 in a year 5 class. No amount of published papers or MNs rephrasing things for you is going to change that.

Thanks everyone! The varied points of views are very helpful. Definitely gives some food for thought.

I think that my best option is to just stick to essentially doing what we're doing at home and having the school do what they do. (This whole thing came up in a conversation with them where they brought in the "gifted and talented coordinator" about what they could do to enrich DC). The school seems great at prepping for 11+, if not for "love of learning" type stuff. And DC definitely has been growing her love of learning outside of school in the last few months!

Thanks again, all.

I have two DC who are both advanced readers for their ages - but as long as school isn’t doing anything like refusing to let them read their choice of books, I think it doesn’t really matter. Both DC have found guided reading in groups a painful experience (as would I, it’s frustrating listening to people read out loud poorly) but if there isn’t anyone else in the class reading at their level then it’s that group or nothing - and they will still learn from the discussion, at least a little.

I’d suggest the library, and sharing reading. I had a happy summer holiday last year re-reading Terry Pratchett - both kids (going in to Y3 and Y5) joined in and so did DH. The kids didn’t get all the references, so we had some interesting discussions around the pool. More recently, the older one has enjoyed the audiobook of Pride and Prejudice and the younger one has moved on to more factual books with a sprinkling of classics like Anne of Green Gables.

I suppose what I’m trying to say is that reading voraciously at home just requires a supply of books, which is relatively easy to do via the library. It’s harder if they are very advanced in maths, I’ve heard.

Is the real issue that you don’t think you’re getting your money’s worth from the prep school?

IME if they are reading well it has much less importance at an independent school after year 4. They are just encouraged to read as much as possible. Emphasis is moving to 11+ type stuff maths, English comprehension and creative writing. Also science, French and in some cases Latin are gaining in importance.
I remember DD having a reading record in year 3, but not after that. It was very casual teacher would take them to the library once a week to choose a new book to read for pleasure.
I agree reading to DC continues to be very important we continued to read together till the summer term of year 7.

It's quite common to have a very much higher reading age than your actual age. If you're just talking about pure reading ability it's not a particularly useful skill in isolation as the children need to understand the subject matter. Pick up on inferences etc.

Surely at home you just allow her to read what interests her, if she has other abilities which aren't being stretched at school that's more of an issue but just in terms of reading I wouldn't worry, most of that happens at home.

I have two advanced readers for their age. My older dd was given a reading age of 12 when she was 8 and had read all the books from the year above at school. When she moved to year 4 they said she had to read them all again and wasn't allowed to access the year 5 books (possibly just down to thete not being enough books). I complained, and we had a compromise that she could just bring in her own chapter books to read. She was flagged as "gifted and talented" but nothing was ever done (by the school) in relation to this.
Fast forward 2 years and she's in a different school. What I have discovered is that in the time that she has been absorbed in her chapter books, she has been skimming through many words that she hasn't understood but never bothered to look up. When I read to her she frequently stops me to ask the meanings of words, but never does it when reading a book to herself. We only realised this when it came to revising for the 11+ and realising that, despite her reading age, her vocabulary knowledge was pretty poor. I don't know how this post might help you other than to maybe encourage you to spend time reading with your child or asking questions about the books she is reading. I always thought that one of the main benefits of reading was to enrich a child's vocab, and had no idea that dd was basically skipping all the tricky words and skim reading every story!

Hi @Hatchimalla,

That’s exactly what I’m worried about! Because she’s not been challenged with her reading, she’s missed out on the literacy learnings of reading for meaning, character development, foreshadowing etc. It’s why I’ve been trying to have the school provide her with higher level books that they ask her about since year 3. As we all know, reading for pleasure isn’t the same as reading for school.

Kids who are reading/decoding at a higher level need to be given reading and work that is challenging for them. Otherwise they get stuck and can fall behind.

—— e.g.
“Talented readers are placed at risk in many schools. Many are not challenged, and, therefore, their reading development can be delayed or even halted. If reading instructional and independent materials are not above the students’ level of knowledge or understanding, learning is less efficient and reading development may be delayed or stopped. It is, for example, not surprising to find that an academically talented first grader in an urban school who reads on a fifth-grade level is still reading at that level when he or she enters fifth grade. Some talented readers never learn to exert effort in reading and consequently acquire poor work habits.” (emphasis added)

assets.pearsonschool.com/asset_mgr/current/201216/ReaMonTalentedRdrsReis.pdf
—-

We found out that DC wouldn’t be having a more academic/challenging Y5 at the end of last year, so I signed her up for a novel study course online specifically to work on those skills to help keep her from falling behind. The school then said that they were to enrich her etc in school, that they were already doing the same things as the novel study course, and then it turned out that they weren’t. It’s all a bit frustrating. As my previous message said, I am basically giving
up on the school. I guess I’ll just keep stretching her outside of class, though I’d definitely prefer to be encouraging her to play instead!

Best,
Emily

Don't worry about her reading, she's doing really well at that. However much extra coaching she gets, she's still a child reading at adult level , and that will affect her understanding.
You could have her join, or form, a book group . If there's not one at school, or locally, try The Reading Agency for help.
But if her maths is only average and you want her to go to a selective school, maybe you should be focusing on that.
And save yourself the fees, and put her in a decent state school. Spend what you save on 1:1 tuition in maths. It doesn't sound as if you're getting much value from this particular private school..

I have a child like this. We didn't do anything, expect become a taxi to the library. Just let him read.

I agree that there is a huge difference in ability to read and ability to understand. I guess that’s exactly what I am asking them to work on? They need to give her a text that is challenging but appropriate

But she's speed reading, OP. I'm guessing it's the excitement of the plot that drives her to read so quickly to the end while characterisation and nuance don't really interest her in the same way. Well, not at the moment anyway. Speaking as an ex-9 year old who did exactly the same, the answer to your question is time. And life experience. Those can't be taught or rushed.

In the meantime, those quick reading skills will stand her in good stead throughout life in any number of professions where speedy assimilation of facts and thinking on one's feet are a definite advantage.

She'll be fine. Just let her read.

My yr 6 DS has been reading at a similar level for several years, it is hard finding appropriate books to challenge him. The classics are a good option - eg books like Swallows and Amazons etc as they have different vocabulary and are written in a more involved and complex manner than many children's/teen books these days.

At his prep school he just chooses what he wants from the school library (it goes up to yr8 so some more advanced choices are available).

It's not reading that is really the focus here once DC can read fluently but comprehension and understanding plot, characters, different narrative styles etc. What is your DD doing in English lessons? Have you seen her school books so you can see what type of work they do on this? My DS in yr 5 did various work on mind maps for characters, how the author uses different techniques to create eg tension, suspense etc. I think these are the sorts of areas to be looking at with the school rather than the specific books she is reading.

In respect of understanding what she's reading and vocabulary etc, my DS has a basic kindle (not a fire or anything so no distractions) and one of the really useful facilities is to be able to click on a word he doesn't understand and get a definition, he wouldn't stop to ask me or get a dictionary if he didn't understand a word he would just skip it but he will click for the definition. That helps to develop his vocab as well as general understanding of the text.

I agree with PP focus on the areas where she may need extra help like maths (I agree with the teachers if she's average for her age in maths then she won't make an academic secondary - most children in the top sets of my DC's prep are working 1-2 yrs above their age in both maths and english and it's not a particularly academic school) and just let her continue to enjoy reading.

she’s lovely and she’ll be fine in whatever she does, but we don’t think she’s on track for a very academic secondary school.

Maybe she isn't. My sister had a reading age of 17 in year 3, failed her 11+ because whilst she can read amazingly her reasoning was off, DD similarly gifted in reading sucks at maths. Academic secondary schools don't just judge on reading ability.

Best thing you can do is either find a book club that will take children or start your own little book club, so she is getting to read new things and discuss them, that's what we did for Dsis and then DD. It was also quite a nice thing to do together. Just be careful in the teen/young adult section in the library, some of that really isn't suitable! We started out with a mixture of Terry Pratchett and old classics as most of those are pretty safe.

I would definitely play more outside of school rather than give her extra work!!!!
Just let her read.

This was me too op and my year 4 dd looks to be heading the same way.

What I do with dd is extend her knowledge by zoning in on what really interests her and then getting her books on that subject, either from the library or amazon etc.

Currently she is loving Greek/roman mythology. They touched upon it briefly in school but that wasn’t enough for dd so she started googling it at home and began to learn all about the different gods.
She then expanded on her knowledge by reading the books, aswell as watching “horrible histories” which she loves.

It’s all well and good being an advanced reader but as you’ve already said, it’s about inference, tone, comprehension etc. These are skills you can work on. The reading is already mastered.

You sound like you’re doing everything possible for your dd. She is lucky to have you!

Maybe an idea to really focus on her areas of interest to really assess her comprehension etc. Good luck.

@ExpatMomOf1

Your daughter is not ahead, neither does she have a reading age of 17 if she need work on understanding why she’s read

There are beautiful age appropriate books that she can read at home and then you can ask her questions and make sure she’s understood what she’s reading.

I think you need to trust the teachers in this case if she’s working at age expectations in reading, Maths and only a little ahead in writing then she’s not going to be getting into a particularly academic school.