34 pupils in a split class - please reassure me. worried

[chocolateismydrug]

DC will start y5 in September. it's one of the schools that went doesn't have enough money, we have been doing 4.5 days for a year now (Friday afternoon off, longer days Monday - Thursday). to save some more money, some more teachers have been let go and school created more split classes. So DC will be in a class of 34, with half of them y4 and the other half y5.

we have never had a split class before. Anyone with a child with such high pupil number and a split class set up who can assure me that things will be fine?

tried to change schools but all the other local school are full....starting to panic a bit now with September approaching.

When I went to school we have two classes, one juniors one infant... 32ish in each.

There will be different levels in any class so split class isn't too different.

In our area (Scotland) the max numbers for a composite class are smaller which is probably why I am relaxed about it. Not sure how I would feel about 34.

I suppose there isn't much you can do apart from additional support at home maybe?

Nobody can tell you whether it will work or not because it will completely depend on the school and how they have done it. Often it can work better than not splitting as there is the opportunity to decide which dc will fare better in which class.

34 is a lot. Hopefully the classroom is bigger than average and hopefully there will be a TA.

34 is a lot. Hopefully the classroom is bigger than average and hopefully there will be a TA.

standard size classroom. classes were never meant to be that big and building is newish do did not factor this in. but definitely a TA and 2 teachers (though not at the same time - it's s job share).

Is your child particularly bright or particularly behind? Does he have SEN?

big classes are usually fine for the middle average kids, but the bright ones don't get pushed and the slow ones don't get enough support.

very, very bright, top set.

I had 34 in my biggest class and that was mixed yr3&4. It's flippin hard work for the teacher, but do-able. I disagree with a pp about the extremes not being pushed/supported - that will happen just fine. Good job there's still a TA - that'll be a big help.

Now get on with campaigning to get school funding improved!

I was in a split y5 y6 class of 36 back in the 80s. Teacher was awesome and I loved it. Went on to do extremely well academically (if I do say so myself)!

My DS was in a class of 36 last term I was worried about it but actually he was happy (year 2). Not split but very wide range of ability within class. It will continue next term unless we move house.

I was in a class of 36 in the 90s. No TA and for year 6 mostly no teacher (long story!). I appreciate things were a bit different then

My DS was in a class of 36 last term I was worried about it but actually he was happy (year 2).

Is this either somewhere not governed by the Admissions Code, or a school that can afford two qualified teachers for the year group but doesn't have a spare classroom to split the class into? I don't think I've ever come across an infant class with six 'excepted' children in it.

I have a memory of being in a class of 44 at one point, but this was definitely a very long time pre Admissions Code.

Yes I was aware we could have challenged the school on it. However in the event it was ok

So typical mums net 'very, very bright, top set'

MrPickles73
Is there a problem with having a very bright child? If it makes you feel better, my other DC has a genetic condition and severe learning difficulties and attends a special school for children with complex needs.

Hope you feel a bit better

The very, very bright made me laugh. it seems mumsnet children are either genius or SEN. Nothing in the middle 80%. Where are the children in the middle? I would consider my kids above average (of course because I am on mums net ) but very, very bright is really something

and children 'are' not SEN, they 'have' SEN.

HTH

It's not great. There are no advantages. But it will be fine and your child will be okay.

There are a few things which are likely to affect whether this is a success or not:

• Does the school have previous experience with mixed classes?
• Have these specific teachers taught a mixed class recently?
• Are both teachers experienced?
• is this all of Y4 and all of Y5, or is one or both years split across this and other classes?
• Dos your child have a group of similar ability peers or are they an outlier?

I would have fewer concerns if the answer is that the school commonly has mixed year classes, both teachers are experienced and have taught this type of class before, that all of both years are included in the class and that your child is a member of a like-ability peer group within the class.

I would have significant concerns if one or both are newly qualified, they have not taught a mixed age group class before, this arrangement is new within the school (that is probably the most significant - no institutional experience of teaching mixed age groups will cause problems), some Y4s / Y5s are in another class and your child is a clear outlier.

Crossed with Jbouse:

I would agree that there are no advantages for a bright child in the higher year group in a newly-formed, very large, mixed age group class. But the size of the disadvantage ranges from minimal to very significant.

I'm typing on a phone so you'll have to excuse grammatical errors

Getting back to the question .. I would imagine if you ask a teacher friend a class of 34 is probably more of a concern than the spilt class. DS2 is in a split class with 3 years (so everyone aged between 4 and 7) but only 23 children. It was OK this year as he was in the middle year but next year would have been the oldest school year. Given he is somewhat 'above average' I was concerned as I felt he would be spinning his wheels. The same happened with our daughter when she was in the same class and in the end she moved schools. However they have rejigged the classes and he will be the youngest year again of 3 years but 25 children rather than 34.

So I would be concerned if your child were going to be the oldest year and the size of the class.

IME compared to a friend who has 2 children with statements at the same school they get a lot more teaching time and she is much more involved in their education than we get. So it also depends on where your child sits in the class. I was concerned for DS2 as he is also quite quiet but he really enjoyed it last year and did well.

HTH!

I agree with what's been said above re school and teacher experience. At our school two year groups is normal but 3 was exceptional. And also the comment on peer groups. DD1 was an outlier with no peer group so it was harder for her whilst DS2 has a stronger year group so that also helps.

One of my dc is in a class of 38 and one a class of 35, not mixed classes, going into year 4 and 6.
It’s been hard but the school cope well on the whole.
I think the kids hit hardest by big class sizes are those who need extra help, be it SEN or just needing extra time to pick something up, the teacher has so much to get through that falling behind is easy.

In a lot of small schools 2-3 year groups in a class is normal and won’t be a problem. It depends how good the teacher is...but the same would be true if he was in a single year group class.

The 34 is more of a concern; though I believe research shows that it makes no difference to children how many are in the class unless it’s below 15 or above 40 (or similar). Massively harder work for the teacher though! As your child is ‘very very bright’ (and I agree all children on mumsnet seem to be extremes!) I wouldn’t worry - this won’t hurt him. You’re clearly on the ball and could do extra at home if you’re really concerned.

Blame anyone who voted Tory. It’s not the school’s fault, there is no funding. I’m amazed they still have a TA, these are usually the first to be cut.

There are lots of factors that make a class harder or easier to teach, and it's not as simple as just numbers or even mixed year groups.

Spread of ability - whether that be within a year group or across >1 - is a significant factor. Teaching a class where the least able is working at or just below reception level and the most able is easily capable of KS3 work (entirely possible in a standard single year KS2 class) is more difficult than teaching a mixed age group class with no / few outliers, so e.g. a Y4/Y5 class where the 'effective ability' ranges between Y3 and Y6.

Mixed year groups - the Maths curriculum in particular is year group specific, so this does make mixed classes harder to plan for. This is particularly difficult across key stages (Y2/Y3 mixed classes and R/Y1 classes). School arrangements can make this harder or easier - it is harder in a school where e.g. there is a pure Y4, a pure y5 and a mixed Y4/Y5, or a Y4/Y5 and a Y5/Y6, to ensure that all Y5 pupils have a similar experience and topics etc don't get repeated.

Numbers - to be honest this matters less within the class itself, but the difference really makes itself felt when it comes to marking!

SEN - as well as making a difference to the ability spread, children with SEN come with significant extra planning and paperwork needs (rightly) as well as adaptations, interventions, sometimes an additional adult etc. These add to workload, and as there is only so much time, it does mean that time for each other child is spread more thinly.

School / colleagues - some schools are easier to work in than others, and the way schools are arranged can make a huge difference. Schools where a lot of the work is 'social work' - lots of TAF meetings, significnt social work involvement, lots of family support, lots of child protection - have time and worry commitments over and above the simple teaching. Equally, schools with multiple classes per year group can ease the planning load while redicing flexibility and imposing additional bureaucratic burdens on occasion.
Behaviour - a well-behaved class of 36 can be easier to teach than a class of 25 where there are children with specific behavioural issues, and again time taken dealing with behaviour means time away from teaching others.

This extremely common and normal in many schools. I wouldn’t worry at all, teachers will know how to adapt the curriculum accordingly. I’ve worked in a very rural primary before which had a mixed 4,5 and 6 class - when the intake isn’t as regular and predictable it’s the only option, but it can work very well.