Wimbledon vs. Dulwich

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Hello all!

American here - we have a potential move coming up to the London area, with 3 kids. My husband isn't on a typical expat contract, so independent schools really aren't in the question.

I have researched and understand about the deadlines to apply and moving from overseas, I really don't see how we can meet any of them, at any point, whether we moved in summer or mid-year, with the exception of the youngest and meeting a reception deadline.

We are looking at the Wimbledon area (near Southfields station) and the Dulwich area. Both seem to have loads of good and outstanding state schools. My question is - surely the kids can get into one of them regardless of when we move, right? I think I read a stat that 95% of the schools in Wandsworth are good/outstanding?

We can't decide if it's better to do a move right after Christmas or in the summer. If we move at Christmas, we can apply for reception for our youngest by the deadline time and the older two (Year 4 and Year 6) would just get what they get? Or we can move in the summer and we'd have a Reception, Year 5 and Year 7 (starting secondary).

I know all parents think this, but they are bright, friendly kids, so I'm not too too terribly concerned about them, but I am a little bit, since it's a big change all around.

My husband can't move first and apply for secondary for my oldest can he? I think I read somewhere that the kids have to be present to apply?

Thoughts?

It all depends on whether there are spaces available in the school. If there are and there’s no waiting list then it will be easy to get in. However, if there is a waiting list for the older children, you will be categorised according to the school’s admissions criteria and then placed in the correct position on the waiting list. You then have to wait. For you reception aged child, you’d be better to be here in time for the admissions as your address will be a key part of the admissions criteria. You’d also want to be in the admissions timeframe for secondary school(Year 7).

Alternatively, the local authority will find spaces for the children but it’s unlikely they’ll all get a place in the same school.

Incidentally, neither Wimbledon or Dulwich are in Wandsworth. Wimbledon is Merton and Dulwich is Lambeth.

Yes, you’re right and I am aware of that boroughs! I had just looked at Southfields being in Wandsworth, and for some reason mixed them up. I meant to type Wandsworth instead of Wimbledon. Ugh. Sorry for the confusion! We are looking between Wandsworth (Southfields, specifically) and Dulwich - knowing they are not the same area, but equally look to have loads of good schools.

Thanks for your reply. Do you know if there is ever a time when everywhere is full? They have to put you someplace, right?

If you have the choice, I would try and move in the summer. There will be more movement and you are more likely to get a space in your school of choice.
I live nearer Wimbledon than Southfields/Wandsworth but both are lovely, family areas to live. There's (relative for London) lots of green space.
I don't know much about Dulwich.

As you say, they will have to give them a place somewhere and no, I don’t think there’s a time at the moment when all schools are full. This is particularly the case at the lower end of primary where there’s been a drop in the number of children in London. There is a bulge (increased number of children) though which is about to hit secondary. It is very unlikely that you’ll get them all in the same school if you’re just placed and there may be some distance between schools.

www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk

This is where you can find out more about state schools. It’s perfectly possible to be rated good or even outstanding and still have very low academic attainment for example (which might not be the ideal if you have bright children).

I would also say that the stretch you’re looking at does have some very good schools but many very unimpressive ones too. The risk with the ages of children you’ve got is that there might be a school place in a dire school 2 miles away instead of the nice one around the corner. If you go Dulwich way, the borough of Lambeth is also one of the worst in London for youth knife crime so personally I wouldn’t have my child in a random state secondary school around there.

My personal advice (having worked in education for donkey’s years and been to over 100 schools around Greater London) is to move a bit further out.

In terms of primaries, boroughs of Richmond, Kingston, Sutton and Bromley lead the national attainment tables and vast majority of schools there are desirable. The chance of being awful school would be low.

In Richmond, a lot of children seem to go private for secondary so only a couple of the state ones are fab. Kingston, Sutton and Bromley all have a good number of desirable secondaries. Many of them are non-selective but the three boroughs also have grammar schools (academically selective) for the very bright ones.

I would also say that in the outer boroughs, even the not-so-desirable schools have very good behaviour. Closer to central London you do get a very mixed intake and quite a few kids can be pretty rough.

@Pud2 @JoJoSM2 thank you both - that’s very helpful. I’ll have a look. I’ve been doing so much reading, I feel like my head will explode!

I would consider asking your husband's employer for help with the move, it's a big step with 3 children. I agree with move a bit further out too plus ask about funding for American schools.

OP, if you check schools out on the website, go to search by local authority to view them borough by borough.

www.met.police.uk/sd/stats-and-data/met/crime-data-dashboard/

Here’s another website for you. It’s the Metropolitan Police website so you can have a look at crime rates. In the safer neighbourhood section, you can look at smaller areas.

I’d just say that in London, expensive/posh area does not necessarily equate to safe or having great state schools.

@Gingercat1223 I don’t know that we want American schools though. We aren’t certain if this would be temporary, and I think that’s why it’s not a typical expat contract. It’s not a 2 years and back home kind of thing, but job that could easily be the rest of his life.

Dulwich is actually in Southwark and a world away from Brixton et al. It’s very genteel and leafy.

If you are looking at Dulwich itself, the two primaries in the village are Dulwich Village Infants and Dulwich Hamlet Juniors. Local state secondaries are Charter North Dulwich, Charter East Dulwich and Kingsdale.

The borough of Southwark is even worse than Lambeth for youth knife crime.

There have been stabbings at Kingsdale (on school premises). If you look at the link below, you’ll see the Charter North Dulwich info and advice on knife crime and gangs. Not something you ever see/is needed in many other areas.

www.charternorthdulwich.org.uk/attachments/download.asp?file=833&type=pdf

This in not to say that Dulwich isn’t regarded as an affluent middle class area. It is. Some of the state primaries are little bubbles attended by the affluent middle class children that live no more than a few roads away. However, secondaries have larger catchments and you’re not in a bubble any more (it’s not just Dulwich, though - a general case for any area close to central London).

OP, are you sure that both Wimbledon/Southfields and Dulwich would be good choices for commuting? Where would you need to commute to?

Wimbledon is one of the best-connected areas of south London, with trains to Clapham Junction (from which you can change and go to Victoria) and Waterloo every 3 minutes or so at rush hour. Plus the tube.
Southfields has only the tube (same line as Wimbledon), but that’s not exactly the most frequent line nor the fastest; overground trains from Wimbledon to Waterloo are typically more frequent than tube trains.

What do you mean by Dulwich? The Dulwich Village is served by the North Dulwich station only. East Dulwich by the East Dulwich station, plus Denmark Hill isn’t too far, either.
A big problem with Dulwich is that it’s served by Southern Rail, and that line was an absolute disaster over the last couple of years. Lots of strikes and cancellations. One summer there was one train per hour at peak time! It seems to have got better recently, but transport links in Wimbledon are still much better. The difference is not so much that, when all goes well, you must wait 7 more minutes for the train to Dulwich; it’s that, when things don’t go well, commuting from Dulwich may take much much much much longer.

Have you also considered other parts of Wandsworth? Balham is well connected with very frequent trains + tube (for some reason, Southern Rail didn’t neglect Balham as much as it did Dulwich). The whole area between the commons (between Wandsworth and Clapham Common) is very popular with families and with good schools; depending on the exact location, you could commute from Clapham Junction or from Balham or Clapham South (but the tube from Clapham South can be incredibly crowded). Earlsfield is halfway between Wimbledon and Clapham Junction (one stop from each) and also has good primary schools; cheaper houses because there isn’t much around there.

One piece of advice: take feedback with truckloads of salt. Many Londoners will tell you that wherever they live is best, will not admit their commute is hellish (I have heard people telling me that getting into north London from Bromley is ‘convenient’ – I kid you not) and will want to convince you that the school of their little Johnny is an Oxford for little children.

Have you familiarised yourself with the criteria of religious schools, if they are an option? The idea that all taxpayers fund state schools which are only accessible to some religious minority is IMHO unworthy of a civilised society, but, if you don’t find that as aggravating as I do, one religious schools may in fact be a good choice.

You need to think strategically of a location from where to apply to both good primaries and good secondaries, right? In Dulwich there are two good Charter schools (I think they’re part of the same trust), one near North Dulwich, one near East Dulwich, both with some primaries nearby.
In Wandsworth, Graveney is considered a very good secondary, and part of its intake is by merit. I wouldn’t move near there (so as to get in by distance), though, because transport isn’t great from there.
Other options in Wandsworth might be Balham: Chestnut Grove is considered a good secondary and has some primaries nearby, but Graveney seems to have a better reputation (especially for kids who want to study science at uni).
Or East Putney, with the Ashcroft Technology as secondary.
Or between the commons (Ark Bollingbroke as secondary, Honeywell as primary).

I have no direct knowledge of these schools, by the way.

SouthLondonDaddy, swings and roundabouts on the transport front tbh... We used to live between the commons but trying to get on a train at CJ in rush hour is pure hell and often takes 3 trains before you manage to get on. And then you’re jammed against others like a sardine in a tin. And then you change to the tube and it’s the same story all over again.

DH actually says he much prefers his longer commute from zone 5 now. He just gets a widow seat on the Thameslink and gets a lot of work done before having a 5-min walk at the other end. So the commute is longer but more productive and less stressful.

He would be commuting to Blackfriars/City Thameslink area.

We used to live in a Wandsworth, used CJ daily to Waterloo, when he was on the Strand, like 12 years ago. It’s all a new game with kids.

We aren’t opposed to looking to other areas, but don’t want to be reliant on a car. St. Albans was an area that we looked at for some tome, but I was nervous about buses and transport within the areas. My same concerns with Woking or Guildford.

We are coming from Texas, where it’s common to sit in a car for over an hour to get to work, so we aren’t afraid of a commute. Schools are our main priority.

Also, not opposed to religious schools, as mentioned above. We have no affiliation with CoE. Husband is Catholic, but kids and I haven’t done the “rites” or whatever they are called. Will they let in non-church members?

When you apply for church schools for reception or Y7, generally they will be oversubscribed and will give priority to regular churchgoers of their particular denomination. Families often get actively involved with church life + collect priests’ signatures/stamps from their weekly mass attendance as that gives you priority.
If a school still has places to fill after that, they’ll generally take another type of Christian (parents married in church, children babtised etc) over someone with no demonstrable strong faith.
For in-year admissions, you might have more of a chance (I’ve seen Muslims in Catholic schools that just didn’t participate in prayers and masses).

If commuting to Blackfriars/City Thameslink, then being on the Thameslink could actually make for an easy peasy commute.

A good spot in my neck of the woods would be somewhere between Sutton and Cheam stations (Sutton has the Thameslink). Cheam has a lovely village centre with a smaller Waitrose and Sainsbury’s, lovely restaurants and independent shops etc. There are rugby, cricket and tennis clubs, a David Lloyd (premium family health club), beautiful parks etc. There are very many great primaries around + Cheam High is an outstanding non-selective school with high attainment. You could also try for one of the 5 super selective grammar schools (exams at the start of Y6).
Sutton itself has a large town centre with a pedestrianised high street. There are many decent restaurants and cafes + supermarkets, cinema etc. The high street is handy (and clean, people are polite etc) but other than a designer department store opening soon, it’s un-posh and gets many unkind comments on Mumsnet. I live in South Sutton which is good if you want a big house (friends have remarked the roads remind them of American films with the grass verges, trees and large detached properties). It is quite spread out, though, so if you don’t get a place in the most local school, you might need to drive (luckily there’s little traffic and you don’t even get stuck in rush hour).

I think there’s also a Thameslink in Beckenham Junction. Beckenham also has a lovely high street, parks, fab schools but can’t say anything too specific as I don’t know it that well. Your nearest big town centre would be Bromley (high street not great but a fab shopping mall).

OP, will you be working from home / staying at home or will you need to commute, too?

My two cents is that moving to Sutton Weybridge Guildford Surrey Kent etc and commuting to London is only really feasible if only one parent commutes to London, not if both do. I know many such families - the father (it's always a he) basically sees the kids only at weekends. I would hate that, as long as there is an alternative, but to each their own. Also, do not underestimate the cost of commuting: train and often the cost of parking at the station, plus often the need for the other parent to have another car while the husband's stays parked at the station the whole day.

Religious schools tend to have very strict criteria on things like being baptised within x months of birth etc. You really need to look at each school's criteria in detail. There was a time when parents "helped out" at church, including with financial donations (don't get me started...), to get a place, but that's been outlawed now and the criteria are more objective.

If the husband needs to get to Blackfriars / City Thameslink, then being on the Thameslink (look it up, it's a train line) could be very convenient, more than being in Wimbledon Balham or Clapham Junction. Denmark Hill, near East Dulwich, is on that line. But you really need to look into whether the train lines there are still third world or have improved. E.g. www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,1765183,page=1 - that's a local forum for Dulwich. NappyValleyNet is a similar forum for Wandsworth

Have you ever heard of the Dulwich Estate? In many parts of Dulwich, even when you buy a freehold, you must pay them because... reasons (they look after some green spaces etc) AND must ask for their permission before doing changes to your house. Eg they typically do not allow double glazing. Steer clear. Oh, and it's a charity which finances... the 3 local private schools!!!

JoJoSM2, what line? I often change at Clapham Junction around 8.30am to go to Victoria and I have almost never had to wait to get on the train, it's actually a very easy commute. Taking the Northern line from Balham or Clapham South etc is often a very different story, tough.

By the way, I wasn't talking about overcrowding but about reliability. One train per hour from Dulwich to London Bridge, as was the case 2 or 3 summers ago, is beyond unforgivable. Also, sometimes from Victoria to Denmark Hill there are only 2 or 3 trains per hour. If they cancel one and the next one is delayed, your commute can easily take 40 minutes longer than usual. If you have to go from Victoria to Wimbledon it is much more unlikely to be 40 minutes late.

Also, another advantage of stations like Balham Wimbledon and Clapham Junction is that there are multiple train lines all converging into these stations. That means that, even if there is an issue on one line, you have other lines which are still working. That's not the case for the Dulwich - Denmark Hill lines.

OP, the parks around Dulwich and Peckham are IMHO beautiful, but the area feels much more isolated. If you don't find whatever it is you're after on the local high street, it can be a bit of a mission to go elsewhere. I'd say Wandsowrth is much better in this respect because it has better connections to the centre and more choice in terms of high streets (Northcote rd, Wimbledon ]technically Merton], the Southside shopping centre etc). I am not talking about glamorous shopping, just about sorting out boring chores like finding new shoes for the kids.

But, as usual, to each their own - I am sure there are families living in each of these areas who are quite happy with their choices.

Only one commuting parent, luckily! Your comments are helpful and give us some other places to look into!

SouthLondonDad, CJ is just generally massively overcrowded. When I commuted from there, I couldn’t ever get on the first Victoria or Waterloo train and needed sharp elbows for the subsequent ones.

Sutton is zone 5 in London and plenty of both parents commute. It’s under 1h door-to-door and DH can cycle to work in under 1h too!
And it’s got tons of trains (direct to Victoria, London Bridge, as well as the Thameslink up to the City, Kings Cross etc). You don’t park at the station as you walk to it in a few minutes. If you’re in a mansion further from the station, you’d need a car but if you’re closer to the town centre or in Cheam or Carshalton, you wouldn’t need a car at all (station, schools, clubs, shops, pools, libraries etc all walkable).

www.sutton.gov.uk/downloads/file/1759/schools_mid-term_vacancy_checker

Found this for you, OP. Tried to find one for Wandsworth as well but nothing is jumping out.

I can see spaces in Y4 & 6 in Cheam Common Juniors (due to expansion). It’s an extremely academic school (44% of pupils achieved higher standard last year) and its close to Worcester Park station (Waterloo line). For secondary, you’d have the excellent Cheam High (or a selective school if you get in).

From Carshalton (Thameslink, Victoria line and London Bridge from Carshalton Beeches), you can walk to Harris Primary Academy or Stanley Park Juniors (both very good schools and have Y4 and 6 vacancies). The non-selective secondaries are average from there (+ it’s near the one bad school in the borough).

Actually, you could also live in South Sutton and still just about walk to Stanley Park Juniors. And the most local non-selective secondary from there is the newly opened Harris South Sutton (specialises in STEM subjects and has state-of-the-art science facilities + links with the famous Royal Marsden hospital next door).

Awesome, thanks for the suggestions. Added to the list to look into more!

No help for the areas of London you mention BUT I would recommend commuting in from St Albans or Harpenden on the Thameslink. There are some excellent schools there, especially secondary schools, although you do need to live on the doorstep of them to get in!

Oh, and hey, my friend moved from Texas to St Albans two years ago and has a blog all about it - abroadpurpose.com/