Advice from Admissions please

[changeitis]

Hi

I feel fairly confident about the situation but would welcome some practical advice and also some input on how to achieve the right outcome.

I moved a while ago and local schools were full. So we took a school almost 3 miles away and DC is happy. It's a pain of a drive though. I still want DC at the local school.

Year 4. Two form entry. Very popular outstanding school.

I applied for an in year place. I was told they were full. I asked for our waiting list rank. They will not rank me. They refuse as they say there isn't a place. If a place came up then they re-rank. That's fine except I thought I had a right to know my rank at any given moment. (Changeable of course).

Further more, this school always take their junior classes to 32 pupils. They have done for a long time. They literally add four more children in year 3 from their waiting list.

I think they seem to have changed their stance on this though as not all the junior classes are at 32 right now. Some are.

I am very reliably informed Y4 have a 31 and a 32 class. One child left THIS academic year and they haven't filled the place.

Is historic proof of 32 in classes a good reason to win an appeal? How many years of classes sizes are they obliged to give and how do I ask for this?

I have the pastoral side to consider as well. Making local friends. Preparing for secondary transition with local friends. They have clubs that DC loves not available at current school. Walking to school is a big factor for me.

Huge thanks to those of you in the know. Grateful for all advice on how to proceed bearing in mind I'd like an amicable relationship if DC gets a place. !

No, they don't have to tell you your waiting list position. Most schools will but it is not compulsory. If they use random selection as a tie breaker, they cannot give any sensible answer to questions about waiting list positions - I mention that because the comment about re-ranking when a place comes up sounds like random selection.

If they are over PAN a child leaving does not create a vacancy so they don't have to fill the place.

The fact they may have gone over PAN in the class helps with an appeal but it is unlikely to be enough on its own to win.

If you are appealing they must answer any reasonable question you ask to help you prepare for your appeal. Just contact the school with your questions.

Local friends and walking to school are unlikely to win an appeal. The clubs are a better basis for a successful appeal.

The way that admissions work in-year can be different from an admission at reception. So at reception the LA has to hold a waiting list till december 31st as a minimum. However after that period there is no legal requirement to hold a waiting list. Different LAs do different things, some continue to hold waiting lists whereas some just ignore the situation entirely. At that point it is free-for-all as to what happens when a place becomes available. That is really not satisfactory but is not illegal. Some LAs and schools take a half way house and hold what they call a "interest" list, so that when a place becomes available in a year group, all parents who have expressed a continued interest are contacted and given a short period of time to apply and then the school utilise the admission criteria to decide who is top of the list and gets the place. Your school seems to be running with a waiting list.
I think you need to establish exactly who is responsible for admissions in-year, it could be the school or it could be the LA. You then need to establish what the policy is, if it exists. Only then will you be able to tell whether the school are carrying out the process correctly but if you have a waiting list then it does seem sensible that you could be told where you are on the waiting list.
The school does not have to exceed the PAN of the school, which is obviously 60 from your post. They can however take pupils over and above the PAN if they wish in KS2. That does not mean they always have to and it does not affect the PAN. The problem you have is that you do not know how the places above 60 were allocated. If they were by appeal then the school will not admit more pupils till they are below 60. If however it is solely at the whim of the school then at appeal their reasoning for allocation for places will become a key question for the panel. If you are correct in saying that the school have admitted 2 in one class to give 32 but in the other class there are only 31, then it does seem unrealistic not to be admitting to 32 in that class as well. There could well be a good reason for that, for instance the size of the classroom or the fact there are more SEN pupils with 1 to 1 support. However you are only going to establish these facts by going to appeal, the school will not give you this information without being in an appeal situation.

Thank you.

Good to get clarification re wait list rules.
They are not random selection. They do have element of religion but it doesn't impact greatly their catchment of pupils which is more related to the housing estate.

Also good to know the going under PAN factor.

I am appealing under the grounds of
Whether decision to refuse admission was one which a reasonable admission authority would have made.

My only basis is precedence. They started the academic year with 32 and 32 against PAN of 30 and 30.

Now it is 31 and 32.

So I would like the place they lost.

Clubs is easily won. For example my sons library book history shows he took out books for the clubs they have. I would like to firm up the local friends for emotional side of his well being too. He's had a tough family journey resulting in us moving.

Could I ask for more help?

I wrote a full letter requesting appeal.
school replied saying blah blah clause 4 cannot admit as school is full.

They wrote again their class sizes.
It was purportedly written by an administration person on GB but it was pp signed by school staff.

So they haven't actually actioned my request for appeal. They make no mention of it at all.

LA told me 30 days time frame for an appeal with 10 day notice period.

Can you please advise me on what on earth to do next ?

My very basis of thought is that there are 8 classes which the school report are full with 32 children in each. This is reported to me and the LA. They haven't acknowledged my request of appeal at all.

I'm hearing repeatedly that there are not 32 children in every class from our neighbours. These are the very Children in those classes adamant they do not have 32 class mates.

I don't believe the chair of governors who i wrote to has seen my letter. I believe the school themselves are shutting down to coin a phrase.

Is the Governor email address publicly available? The school are not listed as such on Edubase. Academy.

They HAVE to allow you to appeal however unlikely your chances of winning. Don't let yourself be fobbed off.

The letter telling you that they weren't offering you a place should have told you how to appeal. If you haven't got that any more, contact the school and ask them how to lodge an appeal. You don't lodge an appeal by writing to the chair of governors. If your letter was clear that you wanted to appeal they should have accepted it in my view but if you follow the correct process they have no choice. As Eddiemairswife says, they must allow you to appeal.

Yes I followed the correct procedure and specifically wrote that to their chair of governors. Couldn't have been clearer.

Return letter fails to acknowledge entirely. So now I need to send another letter to school as the only address available for chair. Hence asking is the contact for a chair available elsewhere so I can discuss more directly?

I'm unclear. Are you saying you lodged an appeal and then separately wrote to the chair of governors?

Are you absolutely sure the school manages its own in-year admissions? If in doubt, call the local authority and talk to them about the problem - they should know the process and advise on how to make sure the appeal is lodged.

Sorry not to be clear.
I have appealed to chair as is the correct procedure.

They have simply said thanks for letter asking for appeal. We're full so can't admit.

Zero acknowledgement of my requesting an appeal. Nothing further.
Not signed by chair. Signed by deputy Head.

I feel school staff have ignored / shut me down. Probably not even shown chair of governors. Nor the head.

Is it hugely inappropriate to message chair on social media?

Now I really am confused. I would not expect an admission appeal to go via the chair of the governors. I'd like to dig into this but not publicly. If you would like to contact me by PM I'll see if I can get to the bottom of this.

Will do and thank you

Prh47bridge

I'm having problems with my Mumsnet account. I have been all year annoyingly. I am logged in on the app but can't log on via computer to access messages.

Waiting for MNHQ to help.