Withdrawing DD from RE?

[Widget123]

I want to see if anyone’s had any experience withdrawing their children from PE? How did the school handle it etc.

My husband and I are both atheists. Our DD is 5 and is extremely interested in the universe and science. She’s now coming back from school very confused thinking that god created the world and asking if he made the Big Bang happen! This is too confusing for her, she naturally believes what her teachers tell her (why wouldn’t she) so naturally she’s taking RE as fact and it’s confusing the hell out of her.

I’m happy for her to learn about god in her own way in the future and find her own path but she’s much too young right now.

I’ve read we have the right to withdraw her from Re so simply want to see if people have had experiences with this.

[thirdfiddle]

Not for 5 yr olds in our local curriculum sadly sighs. Only religion, and disappointingly Christianity-heavy.

[IdaBWells]

A lot more education happens after 5. The main educators and influencers of children are their parents. Muslim children at Christian schools don't suddenly become Christian. In you have confidence in your values and beliefs a 45 minute lesson a week is unlikely to change anything. I am more surprised that in our deeply cynical nation which doesn't seem to have faith in anything, you still are confident that an ordinary school will evangelize your child.

[BertrandRussell]

“RE isn't just religion either - it also includes ethics, morality and philosophy.“

1. not in Reception
   
2. And not as much further up the system under the new GSCE curriculum, sadly.

[IdaBWells]

sighrolleyes that's good.

[BertrandRussell]

In you have confidence in your values and beliefs a 45 minute lesson a week is unlikely to change anything“
Ah, yes. The old “a little bit of Christianity won’t do you any harm” argument. Shame people of faith don’t apply the same relaxed approach to PHSE. Or whatever title it goes by now.

[IdaBWells]

Do none of you talk to your kids? Barely anyone goes to church in the UK. British schools are not producing deeply committed, observant Christians. I really think you have absolutely nothing to worry about! Most Brits are massively ignorant of Christianity even with their basic lessons at school. It's clearly not having an impact.

[WhyAmIPayingFees]

OP please find out what syllabus they are using. There is massive variation in how it is handled and quality of teaching and the extent to which it is real education vs actual indoctrination.

In Northern Ireland the situation is dire even in the state schools. It is shockingly unbalanced:

www.education-ni.gov.uk/sites/default/files/publications/de/religious-education-core-syllabus-english-version.pdf

In private schools anywhere it can be even worse. Even in the state system the syllabus can be determined locally and I was shocked at the one sided evangelical bollocks that was around when my kids were younger. You might be in an area where it’s a healthy mix of all faiths and none with a healthy dose of philosophy and ethics, but if not just get your kids out of it.

[IdaBWells]

I am not C of E but studies of demographics are showing it dying a death and going extinct by mid-century so I'm sure you'll all be thrilled. And British society will be a more loving, forgiving and kind society without the "little bit of Christianity". What a Utopia it shall be.

[thirdfiddle]

I've personally seen them evangelising my child. Whether it sticks long term or not it's not something that should have happened in the first place as child was withdrawn from acts of worship, and RE is supposed to be telling them about religions not teaching them to follow them.

[IdaBWells]

thirdfiddle that's absolutely inappropriate. What context was that in? I don't know of any school that allow their teachers to act like that.

Can you describe what you are talking about?

[spreadingchestnuttree]

@idabwells so can only Christians be loving, forgiving and kind?

I'm atheist. It means that I don't believe in God. It doesn't mean I have no values.

[IdaBWells]

No but the general attitude is that nothing good has come from Christianity despite it being the dominant religion of most of Europe for up to 1700 years. Most European nations chose to convert to Christianity, it was not forced upon them. When the Nosemen turned up Viking their way around the coast of the British Isles in the 9th century, they were attacking monasteries. I am only on the opinion that a balanced, honest view of history and culture should be taught. What overarching ideas are currently bringing our country together?

[Ragwort]

My friend was ‘withdrawn’ from RE lessons years ago, now, years later she is a committed Christian, attending worship every week & training to be a lay preacher. . Her father, now deceased, would be horrified.

[thirdfiddle]

What Ida? The fact that Christianity did a good job of keeping the peasants quiet and civilisation on the rails in Europe for centuries is irrelevant to whether we want our kids inducted into the religion today. It's interesting history, and RE is interesting as a study of people and cultures. IF it is presented as such.

The problem is we're talking about very small children here and often the way the subject gets simplified for very small children can mean the explanation that this is Christianity and is something some people believe gets dropped along the wayside and they just get "here's a nice story from the Bible" without ever explaining that the Bible is a Christian book, or they get taught to sing songs praising God, or the whole nativity play "and this is why we all celebrate Christmas", or the assembly ends with "and now put your hands together for a prayer". And it's defended as "oh but we're just teaching them about religion" but it's not doing that because there's no delineation between what's real and what's belief and whose belief it is.

[Babdoc]

I think the PPs gloating that the church is dying, are being a little premature. My own church has a growing congregation, and we ran out of hymn books, we were so mobbed on Easter Sunday - where the service included a baptism and the confirmation vows of new members.

As a doctor and a Christian, I see no conflict between religion and science. Science tries to explain How while Religion deals with Why. Science fails to answer even the most fundamental questions, such as why a universe of matter and energy exists at all, instead of just a complete vacuum. The Big Bang is just a description of an event, which Christians refer to as the Creation.

It amuses me that atheists accuse RE teachers of brainwashing children with Christianity, when they do exactly the same at home with their creed of atheism.
You can not disprove the existence of God - you are simply refusing to acknowledge His existence (or even the possibility of it.) That is a faith based position!

[RuffleCrow]

RE isn't about convincing children to follow a particular religion. In state schools it's education about the religious beliefs and practices of others. Think of it as anthropology.

Your dd will also study history - that doesn't mean the teacher is trying to persuade her she should be a Victorian or an Ancient Egyptian. It's just the study of cultural phenomenon which are part of the world she lives in, like it or not.

[IdaBWells]

Well you are the parents so teach your children what you want them to know. What you are describing in hardly sinister. The idea that Christianity is oppressing you is laughable when most people don't go to church and the C of E as a denomination is expected to die out in the UK by mid-century. Your children are your responsibility, if you don't like what they're being taught take the time to have a few conversations with them. The UK is not considered a Christian nation any longer, but is considered post-Christian.

I am only arguing for a good understanding of the culture and history of the country our children are being raised in. Leaving them without this knowledge is not giving them a complete education in my opinion.

Good to know Christianity kept "civilization on the rails" for centuries. What do you think we have as unifying concepts for civilization now?

[Ceara]

sighs our locally agreed syllabus has a strong philosophical strand. I read it when applying for schools. I like it. But "Understanding Christianity" has rather moved RE away from philosophical approaches in DS's CofE school, for the Christianity topics at least.

The FAQs section of the Understanding Christianity website says in terms: "What this resource is not: It is not offering a philosophical or sociological approach to RE...its focus is on an exploration of Christian theology."

I would love DS to be thinking philosophically within RE lessons, and according to the locally agreed syllabus, he really should be, even in Year R. However, what he's actually getting is mainly learning and testing his knowledge of key Bible stories.

Hopefully he gets the philosophical approaches during the minority of RE time which is allocated to other religions. On that note, I'm puzzled by what is said upthread about Understanding Christianity offering the opportunity to learn about other world faiths. Its website says very specifically "this project is not offering a complete RE curriculum. It offers an approach to teaching about Christianity....it is not intended to be applied beyond the study of Christianity, as its roots are within Christianity’s self-understanding, diverse as that is, rather than with a broader understanding of religion as a whole." The learning about other faiths is surely under the wider locally agreed RE syllabus? - Understanding Christianity just supplies the Christianity content, as I understand it? Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm just a parent who had not even heard of Understanding Christianity until last month (the school's website simply says that they teach the locally agreed syllabus, as indeed they are legally obliged to, so as prospective parents we assumed RE would be just the same as at a non-faith community school).

We bend over backwards in this house to speak neutrally and respectfully at home about matters of religion, to be balanced and to recognise diversity of opinion, to avoid undermining the teachers or giving a negative view of any religion or its adherents. No brainwashing is occurring here, thank you. And I'd die in the proverbial ditch for the right of people of faith to their views. Yet the CofE's stated vision/policy for its schools is to "challenge those of no faith". Seems a bit unbalanced? The approach to Christianity at DS's school is unsettling DS - lots of religious terminology and ideas that aren't being explained in a way he understands and raise unanswered questions in his mind, imagery that's given him nightmares. But when I raise an eyebrow, the kneejerk reaction is "this is the obligation of church schools" or "parents who choose church schools should make themselves aware of their Christian ethos" as said upthread, etc. Again, seems a bit unbalanced? Especially for state-maintained schools that serve the whole community and are the only viable "choice" in many areas.

[IdaBWells]

Babdoc I am not gloating. I am reporting what I read in the Christian newspapers and the like. My Christian DH is also a neurologist specializing in Traumatic Brain Injury, even though many readers of MN seem to be of the opinion that his own brain fell out long ago due to having faith.

[Ceara]

Ida, that history will include the foreign policy, trade and political motivations for rulers to convert, yes? And the extent to which "folk beliefs" continued alongside Christianity for ordinary people?

[PegLegAntoine]

I agree it’s wise to talk to the school about how lessons are actually happening. I have no idea how faith schools act or should act regarding RE, thankfully geographically we never had to consider this. Although actually if we were choosing a secondary school our two nearest are catholic and CofE so we would need to look into it.

Unless there is major indoctrination going on I think withdrawing just makes it a bigger deal than it needs to be, draws attention to it and makes it mysterious. The confusion she is facing - which I get is annoying - likely won’t last. DD really dabbled in belief at that age largely influenced by things they talked about at her (non faith) school.

She’s home ed now with friends from all faiths and at 11 has been resolutely atheist for a few years, but RE is one of her favourite subjects, she finds it fascinating. I’m glad we didn’t make a big deal of it at the time.

[thirdfiddle]

Ida, you are missing the point. Noone is saying Christians are unscientific or Christianity is terrible. I just want clear delineation. Teach children about religions but tell them that it is a religion you're telling them about. Don't mash it all together and present it as reality in the same way as you present the days of the week and the weather. That isn't good RE.

That's what we do at home. I label my own beliefs too, I don't tell my kids god/gods don't exist, I tell them that I'm an atheist and that means I don't think any gods exist; and Christians believe xyz etc etc. Then I ask them what they think. I have variously told them over the years that if they want to be removed from acts of worship in school we'll arrange it, and if they want to be taken to church or any other place of worship we'll arrange that too.

A creator god goes no way towards explaining the big bang. It just raises more questions - within what kind of reality does the god entity exist? What natural laws govern that plane? What caused the god entity to come into being? Are there more of them? My opinion is that humans create gods to fill the "I don't know". When we didn't know how thunder happened there were thunder gods. When we didn't know how the earth came to be, God created the earth. Now we don't know how the big bang happened. Maybe we'll never know. Maybe physicists will come up with a theory so convincing the "I don't know" will be shifted another step further back. I'm okay with "I don't know".

[IdaBWells]

thirdfiddle I totally agree with your concept that it should be clear when you are teaching anything regarding faith and religion.

I also want to apologize to anyone if any of my posts were sarky or unkind in anyway. I am from a loud and opinionated family background who enjoy lots of give and take. Sometimes I realise on rereading that my posts may be a reflection of that. I need to take a minute sometimes before bashing out a quick reply on my phone.

I am British but actually in the USA where we have complete separation of church (or any religion) and state. So my kids go to Catholic schools because of choice and they have no subsidies from the state. Public schools are legally not allowed to do much of what this thread discusses.

I personally think, as I have mentioned already that making sure children know and understand the history of ideas (which could include theologies) which have had a huge impact on their own culture is important.

So you are right. I am really addressing a different point. It's just the assumption that people of faith are unthinking, unreflecting and enemies of science is just factually wrong. I believe it's dangerous to imply this to children because it puts up false barriers and could encourage prejudice of the kind which is exploding in antisemitism and other violence against peaceful worshippers.

[IdaBWells]

P.S. I was educated in the UK to graduate level and my mum was a school principal.

[unicornsandwine]

Well if you had that much faith in your atheism, you wouldn't be concerned about your child learning about the world and other religions . What is the need to alienate them just because of YOuR beliefs . Your not allowing them to learn about other cultures and religions and have their own beliefs . You can't sugar coat then from religion it's part of everyday life . Yes you may be able to make fee lonely whilst their peers engage in an activity whilst your child is sat out but are you going to stop then reading the news , listening to the radio , the television? Is ridiculous