Withdrawing DD from RE?

[Widget123]

I want to see if anyone’s had any experience withdrawing their children from PE? How did the school handle it etc.

My husband and I are both atheists. Our DD is 5 and is extremely interested in the universe and science. She’s now coming back from school very confused thinking that god created the world and asking if he made the Big Bang happen! This is too confusing for her, she naturally believes what her teachers tell her (why wouldn’t she) so naturally she’s taking RE as fact and it’s confusing the hell out of her.

I’m happy for her to learn about god in her own way in the future and find her own path but she’s much too young right now.

I’ve read we have the right to withdraw her from Re so simply want to see if people have had experiences with this.

[Ceara]

Or maybe we just need more cross-cultural understanding where faith is only a part of what we learn about different cultures - and maybe this needs to be in the social studies curriculum and not RE.


This is pretty much my issue with the way the Church of England is now making its schools teach Christianity within RE, through the "Understanding Christianity" resource (which looks and reads like an alternative syllabus within a syllabus).

My perspective is that cross-cultural understanding is an important reason for doing RE. And that there is a lot more to understanding different religions, and the idea of faith, than learning about their key beliefs, tenets etc. Over recent decades, from my limited understanding (I'm not a teacher) RE has taken an increasingly broader perspective and benefitted from a range of sociological, philosophical, cultural, anthropological ideas and approaches. The Church of England's new syllabus [sorry, "resource"] avowedly takes a narrower, more pure theological approach, to the stated exclusion of philosophical or sociological approaches, or existential questions. The Church says they see it as a failing of the direction RE has taken in recent decades, that children are no longer gaining, and leaving school with, a systematic and thorough knowledge of Christian theology (this being a Christian country, blah blah). It's all about returning to understanding the Biblical text and the core concepts of Christian belief as a salvation narrative - these have been distilled down to 8 concepts that are revisited time and again in increasing detail through the child's school years. The language of raising academic standards is used, and it's described as a critical, rational approach - which sounds great until you kick the tyres, but the package comes out of a tradition/strand of RE teaching whose starting assumption is that religions are sets of competing truth claims and the "truth is out there", and it boils down to delivering a pre-defined body of knowledge of Biblical texts that's deemed important. I think that studying faith and religion benefits from being so much more than that and I'm really disappointed that my son will miss the opportunity of the broader-based approach other non-CofE schools locally still take.

[Ceara]

If Jesus brought him chocolate once a year his views would probably change .

DS was notably enthusiastic about Christianity in the first term after visiting the church with his class and the vicar giving them good biscuits :-)

[MarchingFrogs]

I don't think you can withdraw a child from RE, in the same way as you can't withdraw them from geography! It is part of the curriculum.

They weren't allowed to withdraw them in the end as there was nowhere for them to withdraw to and no one to look after them.

www.gov.uk/national-curriculum/other-compulsory-subjects


Religious education

Schools have to teach RE but parents can withdraw their children for all or part of the lessons. Pupils can choose to withdraw themselves once they’re 18.

[YetAnotherSpartacus]

Ceara - it all sounds like a return to the dark ages combined with tit-for-tat fundamentalism. Very sad.

[MrsKrabbapple]

The parents were told that they would have to come and collect their dc. There is nowhere to put the PE bags never mind children and no adult to look after them.

[Sirzy]

Ds (9) declared himself as an atheist about a year back and is very firm in his views at the moment. That makes it very important that he learns about others beliefs and learns to respect them (and understand that some people use their religion for bad) whilst still questioning things. And actually RE lessons help him develop that ability to question things.

The same applies for anyone imo with or without a faith.

[Sirzy]

You say “Christians are people who believe in God, and they believe God made the Big Bang happen. We don’t believe in God, and we think that..” yada yada.

Surely that second paragraph should read “I believe that” or “me and your dad believe that” rather than assuming that a child old enough to question will automatically follow the belief pattern of their parents?

[tinytemper66]

I sometimes teach RE in a Catholic school and I say 'Catholics believe this or that etc. Other religions believe ....' I am then recognising that not all the children in front of me will have any faith. I am also mindful that even if they are not Catholic, many may not be baptised in any Christian denomination and I have to watch my words.
I think wording is important in this area.

[GreatestShowUnicorn]

This very much varies from teacher to teacher. Some 'teach we believe and other people believe' and use it as an opportunity to teach their big book of fairy stories as fact, while some teach from the point of 'some people believe this and some people believe that' and manage to keep their own views out of it.

Teachers views/beliefs shouldn't come into it!

[thirdfiddle]

The parents were told that they would have to come and collect their dc. There is nowhere to put the PE bags never mind children and no adult to look after them.

There is only one room and one adult in the entire school? That sounds like a major H&S issue never mind failing to meet your legal obligations on withdrawing from RS. Poor show. I'm surprised the families didn't challenge it.

[Myothercarisalsoshit]

Ceara
Presumably you chose this school for your child?
I am RE co - ordinator at a C of E school. It is a fundamental part of the ethos of C of E schools that we will teach Christian belief and hold daily worship that is Christian in character. We are inspected on this every four to five years.
'Understanding Christianity' does give children the opportunity to learn about other world faiths and compare and contrast them to Christianity in a way that seeks to highlight what unites us rather than division.
I am an avowed agnostic.
People who choose C of E schools for their children should make themselves aware of their Christian ethos.

[Ceara]

It is the village school. The two next closest schools are also C of E. In rural or semi-rural areas there isn't always a choice, in practice.

[BertrandRussell]

I haven’t read the thread, but I suggest before you do anything, you go and talk to the teacher about what is happening about RE. in the classroom. In my experience the “God made the world” stuff is more likely to come from the compulsory collective worship that happens in primary school-and it is quite easy to withdraw her from that. Although you might be uneasy about her missing assembly- a lot goes on there as well as the collective worship so it is a dilemma. If it is coming from the classroom then you have a bigger problem-some teachers will push their own agenda in this area. What should be happening is she should be coming home next week talking about Buddhism, or Islam. Not atheism or humanism sadly. Anyway- talk to the school before you do anything. The BHS website has good info about RE in schools- worth a look.

[JassyRadlett]

People who choose C of E schools for their children should make themselves aware of their Christian ethos.

What should parents who didn’t choose CofE schools but whose children ended up there anyway do?

OP, if it’s any comfort this sort of teaching very quickly turned my eldest into an avowed atheist. DH and I had been very careful from the time it seemed possible that DS1 would end up at a faith school to be very even handed about religion and belief as we didn’t want to undermine the school or deny his belief in his teachers.

He decided early on that he didn’t believe in the Christian god because it didn’t line up with what he felt he knew about science. More fool the school for their methods of teaching.

The sad thing was that for a year it really changed how he felt about the school as a whole, and that he didn’t feel he should go there as he wasn’t a Christian, and he felt that the teachers were lying to him. He’s a lot more relaxed about it now but it was a pity.

[BertrandRussell]

“People who choose C of E schools for their children should make themselves aware of their Christian ethos.”

The problem is that all state schools have a Christian ethos.

[NeverSayFreelance]

I would be looking at where that info is coming from because I doubt it is RE. RE is multifaith. However, the schools tend to follow Christian Faith (even in non-denominational schools) in assemblies where they have prayers, hymns, ministers speaking, etc. That is where I would assume your DDs beliefs are coming from.

My friend at school was withdrawn from all religious worship, but not religious education because her parents wanted her to learn.

[IdaBWells]

I didn't read the whole thread just the first page. Just wanted to make sure you are aware that a Catholic priest came up with theory of the Big Bang. He was a physics professor at a university in Belgium. He realised the universe was expanding and theorized from there.

Christians can be intellectuals and many are from strong intellectual traditions in their pursuit of truth. Catholics in particular have an emphasis on faith and reason. Therefore you don't need to feel frightened about your child being exposed to theists. I would encourage her to be a critical thinker, aware of different ideas, philosophies and also theology because the history of ideas and what has shaped our world is important. By examining Catholic theology for example you might understand why they felt compelled to create monasteries, universities and hospitals over thousands of years.

[IdaBWells]

Here is an article about George's Lemaitre the priest who formulated the theory of The Big Bang.

www.americamagazine.org/faith/2016/05/25/faith-and-science-georges-lemaitre-father-big-bang?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI0vbr8OXw4QIVGP5kCh1HhgzLEAAYASAAEgIXhPD_BwE

[BertrandRussell]

“Therefore you don't need to feel frightened about your child being exposed to theists”
She’s 5. She should not be being told by a teacher anything more definite about the existence of God than “some people believe.....”

[BertrandRussell]

And the Jesuit tradition of intellectual rigour is not universal among Catholics.

[StitchingMoss]

Don’t worry - it’s a phase OP. My DC both went through a brief phase of believing in god when they started doing RE at school, they both moved out the other side pretty quickly and are now confirmed atheists .

We teach them that they need to respect others religions but they are entitled not to believe any of it and to express these beliefs openly.

They are fast becoming great critical thinkers and, god help us, the world needs more of them .

[thirdfiddle]

Lots of Christians have been scientists. Lots of Christians have been evangelical. Lots of Christians have been creationists. Lots of Christians even if not creationists retell stories from the old testament to small children without making clear that they're not the literal truth.

[IdaBWells]

This is true. To be a Jesuit you need 8 or 9 years of intellectual study and formation before ordination. Also the Catholic church as an institution is educating more people on the planet than any other. Education is a strong value in the Catholic tradition just as it is in the Jewish tradition. Not all theists are intellectuals but it's also extremely inaccurate to have any kind of idea that faith prevents intellectual enquiry or the use of reason. My teenage girls are at a Jesuit High School which has an extremely challenging curriculum. The classes study and debate theories and ideas from the classical period onward. They have a class called Collegio which is team taught and combines history, religious studies and literature. One year they study Revolution for example, and look at how ideas changed history and is reflected in literature. I often think the lack of teaching philosophy, theology and critical thinking is producing such poor critical thinkers in the young who are turning to authoritarianism on the left and right.

Don't be afraid to examine ideas that have been foundational to the building of our nation, otherwise not only are you leaving your child ignorant, but giving them the idea that theists are to be demonized. The lack of critical thinking and teaching is behind a lot of the rise in antisemitism I believe. If you don't teach intelligently about faiths then you leave it to popular culture to do it.

[sighrollseyes]

RE isn't just religion either - it also includes ethics, morality and philosophy.