Appeal Primary School Place - Urgent Help!

[Lama3]

I have seen some old threads relating to appeals with some great advise, so I am hoping that some of those people that understand the appeal process are still around to help me with mine.

I have just learnt that my daughter did not get into any of the three preferred schools.

She has been allocated a school that is literally next door to me and is outstanding, however I am worried sick as I truly believe that this school is not suitable for her and so I am wishing to appeal for the first preferred school and am after some advice of what my chances might be and what to fight against.

My daughter has a severe visual impairment with nystagmus and photophobia (effected by the light) and has a visual impairment teacher that visits her at her nursery.

She is extremely capable and gets around areas she knows very well, but her vision is diminished by certain light and especially outside.

The school I wanted her to go to is a new build and also has a special school connected to the building, so there are two levels to it, and ramps where there are also stairs. The outside area is Astro turf and is basically built purposely to help children with disabilities or SEN. They even shout loud about this on their SEND report - and state that all their classrooms have equipment to help hearing and visual impairment.

The school she has been offered is a traditional old school with blocks here there and every where. Although it is predominately one level schooling, there are certain steps intrude narrow hallways, and outside are lots of different areas and steps with a large field with different areas to go to. The classrooms are also more narrow and the area that the whiteboards are located are right next to windows that would make it near impossible for her to see properly. I am aware that the school would have to make provisions to accommodate her, but I think you can see why I am worried about this school.
Knowing my daughter, she will feel more excluded from groups due to the narrow rooms, and lose her independence of going outside as she will need mor whelp to be able to see the depth perception of the steps etc. Don’t forget, she has a problem with this at the best of times, never mind when kids are running and pushing around.

I did note in my application that I was applying for the school under medical grounds and briefly told them why, but this was obviously not taken into account.

I would also note that last year we would have been in my preferred school catchment area, however this year the catchment has literally halved. I am gutted as I wound probably have moved closer had I even thought this might happen, rather naively not thinking it would.

I am also a little annoyed as he visual teacher said there was no point going for an ECHP as she probably wouldn’t get it as she is hitting all her targets but that she probably will for secondary school, but now I am wishing we had tried, because it is all very well her hitting targets now, but It is know good if she starts to not hit then because she is in the wrong school!

Anyway, I know I have gone off a little, but can anyone advise if I have a case and if so, what am I appealing? A mistake with admissions, or that the detriment to my daughter not attending the school far outweighs any detriment to the school in taking an extra child.

I will just add that they school is currently at 30 children so she would be a 31st child if they upheld the appeal.

Thank you in advance for any info x

Ah ok, that makes sense. My dd hasn’t obviously started school as yet so can’t use that argument about the £6k as yet, but at least I know to ensure it is fully used to her benefit if it comes down to it.

Yes, you absolutely can start her at the school allocated, but keep her on the list for the school you want, though as it's further away, the waiting list in almost all of Birmingham schools' cases is done on distance I'm afraid.
An EHCP in Birmingham will take months. Seriously, SENAR have barely any staff nowadays. I'm sure she'll have a place in a school that meets her needs before an ehcp can be done.
Good luck!

KingsHeathen

Thanks for the message. Just to be clear, the preferred school is only 922m away and have been in the catchment for years, so I am not far away, but I believe there were nearly a class and a head of siblings this year hence the drop In catchment area, so I am hoping I am not too far down on the waiting list fingers crossed.

I have just got to fight all avenues and what will be will be I suppose!

The issue over why nothing has happened about an EHCplan is I suspect that the nursery have not moved it forward because child is moving on to primary school. If they were going to do anything they would have done it 12 months ago. What frequently happens is that there is a dis-connect between nursery and primary, which means that the primary school ends up picking up the issue and doing something about it but they need then to show that they have done what they can and produce enough evidence which will be another 6 months.

admission

We did discuss it last year and they were more than happy to move forward with the request for an assessment, but I was warned that it couldnposisny go against me and I may not get the school I preferred, or the school I preferred may say they can’t accomodate her needs (they most definitely can), but this was enough for me to not risk applying for it.
The vision teacher was also telling nursery that it was extremely doubtful thay she wound even get an assessment, which I now know would be unlawful!

I was also so convinced she would get into the school from the catchment area, that I wasn’t too worried - how wrong was I!!

I am going to try and apply now, even if I have to hold her off from starting school to January after her 5th birthday.

Spelling error from above - could possibly go against me

That warning was very poor advice. If a school is named on an EHCP they must admit the child. They have no choice. There are very limited grounds under which a school can object to being named on an EHCP.

Well, presumably if they cannot meet their needs?

But that isn't the case here, thankfully. What a shame you waited, but you had no way of knowing, and it's not good of your DD's support to be stymieing her like that!

Ok, so back to the appeal, obviously the school are going to argue that having another child in the class is going to impact upon the other children, so I obviously need to be knowledgable in what they are going to say so that I can perhaps defend my side and try and prove that that would not be the case.

So with this in mind, what information should I find out from the school for example,
Do I find out about their net capacity as a school and if so, how does that help me?
Do I need to ask if they have taken over PAN previously, and again do I need to ask how they dealt with that or what is the better working for that?
Do I ask what provisions they have for children with a visual impairment or are they not going to want to provide that info to me?

Also who do I ask for this information, the school or the LA admissions team?

What else are they going to say that will impact the school and what can I say to help alleviate that fact?

And again with the EHCP, if I manage to obtain this later in the year but the term has started and they do name the school I prefer, does the school still have to take my daughter in even if it is now over PAN AND in the middle of a school term?

My mind has been working ten to the dozen the past week and have until 15th May to get my appeal in, so questions keep popping into my head!
It’s amazing just how stressful this process is and I don’t usually mind stress!!

I wouldn't spend much time trying to unpick the school's case on potential overcrowding. Unless there's something massive like having run at 35 for the last 5 years. I wasted time and effort on nitpicking at their case and it didn't feel like it was popular with the panel.
Concentrate on building your case. Consultant letters clearly explaining needs and why this school would work best, not just for reception but all the way through to building independence in Y5 & 6. Letter from nursery with their experience and belief that the school would be best. No woolly statements like "I feel" or "probably".
List your arguments clearly and succinctly in order of importance. Ask nicely and one of the experts will read it through for you.

Their net capacity is probably 7 times PAN but worth checking. If they are currently under net capacity it suggests they have space for additional pupils.

You simply need to know if they have been over PAN. You don't need to ask how they dealt with it. If they have been over PAN they have clearly dealt with it somehow which helps you.

You can ask them what provision they have for children with visual impairment.

The admission authority must answer any reasonable question you ask to help you prepare your appeal. If this is a community school or VC school the LA is the admission authority. If it is a VA school, free school or academy it is its own admission authority. Having said that, regardless of the type of school I would ask the school first.

You will get their case to refuse admission before the hearing. At that point you will know what they are going to say and can plan how to undermine that in the hearing. You will get help here if you need it. But you don't need to try and guess what they will say.

The case you submit on 15th May should be purely about why your daughter needs this school. You don't need to say anything about the disadvantage to the school at this stage. You deal with the school's case in the hearing.

If you get an EHCP naming the school they must admit your daughter even if they are over PAN and it is in the middle of term.

Both of you have helped me lots there, thank you!

I think I just wanted to know if that they have gone over pan so that I have the information to hand if and when it is used in appeal so will ask the school for it!

I think I am not worried about writing the appeal answer I just don’t know where to start and worried I miss something out.
As I am sure you can appreciate her opthalmologist consultant is an extremely busy man, and may struggle to get a letter from him before the deadline date, am I able to send further information when I have it, and if so, do I need to mention that they will be sent later in the appeal letter? I just worry that I mention I will be getting a consultants letter and then for whatever reason I don’t manage to get it, then it will go against me in some way.
Also the consultant won’t know the schools to hand unless I explain them to him, but maybe he can put what kind of building and layout is best for her? I don’t know but I will just ask the question.

I could go to the local doctors who know the schools and see if they will write something, but may not carry the same weight as her consultant!

Oh and thank you for the offer of asking you for more help as the appeal date gets closer!

I also meant to add, but would It not go in my favour in some way that I am asking to go from one school that is ofsted outstanding and literally on my doorstop, to another ofsted outstanding school that is only around the corner but still further away than the allocated school!?

Surely they can see that this is not a case of wanting a “better” school but actually one of providing an environment where my daughter will keep her independence and therefore thrive more.

In all literature about visual impairments, it clearly states how an environment is essential for them and their self-esteem. It says a lot more, but I was going to include information from those sites as part of my appeal too as I feel this would be extremely relevant to my case!?

It could be their allocation of kids with additional needs was filled already. It's worth both appealing and going on the waiting list but if others live closer and/or have specific needs which named the school they will be prioritised

The consultant probably won't know the school, no. You need to make it as easy for them to write the letter as possible so if possible, email them (so they can cut and paste text if they want to) with a very clear explanation of why your chosen school is good for her and why other schools would not be as good. You can submit evidence after the deadline but you should do it at least a week before the hearing to give the panel a chance to read it.

Remember you are appealing for your preferred school, as the one which can best meet your dc needs, the allocated school is not important Ofsted outstanding or not. The panel could however take a view that allocated or indeed any other school can make any necessary accommodations and support her, hence you need specific evidence.

As I am sure you can appreciate her opthalmologist consultant is an extremely busy man, and may struggle to get a letter from him before the deadline date, am I able to send further information when I have it, and if so, do I need to mention that they will be sent later in the appeal letter?

No you don't. You can send it in later regardless of whether or not you mention it.

I also meant to add, but would It not go in my favour in some way that I am asking to go from one school that is ofsted outstanding and literally on my doorstop, to another ofsted outstanding school that is only around the corner but still further away than the allocated school!?

That shouldn't make any difference either way.

As long as you give the appeal panel at least a couple of days to review you can send in a suitable letter after the supposed cut off date for information.
You do however need to understand what the letter needs to say for it to have a suitable level of credence with the panel. If it says Mrs X tells me that this is the best school then it will not have much weight with the panel because they are told to ignore such letters.
The letter needs to say something like " I am an experienced opthalmologist consultant and have X years experience of Y as a patient. In my professional opinion she needs, because of her VI, to have a school which has ramps etc. Having studied the information from the school I have no hesitation in saying that this is a school which would be most appropriate for Y to attend. " It has to talk about consulting the child and explain why the school is the most appropriate.

Sorry for the delayed reply, but not had a minute spare since the other days however I just wanted to thank everyone for their time in helping me again.

admission

I never even took much thought into how the consultants letter was written, but what you stated makes absolute sense. You are a lifesaver, as I would have just gone into the appeal thinking I had a fab letter from him, but actually one that didnt carry any weight whatsoever.

I have written to him today requesting his support, so will see what he comes back with.

I have also put my daughters name on other school waiting lists. Non of them are as appropriate as my first choice, however they are definitely better than the allocated.

I think I just need to get this appeal in and then try and switch off and see how things work out, otherwise I will be making myself sick stressing about it constantly!

I can’t believe the amount of knowdlesge I have gained off this site though, and I will be back soon for some more advice on the next stage! x

Hi,

I am hoping that some of you are still on this thread to be able to help me further, but if not I will just start a new one.

I have not received my school appeal date for next week, and today also received the notes from the school advising why they basically can’t admit another pupil, which I am aware is pretty standard.

I have a few queries that I feel may assist in my hearing and am hoping that you may be able to help in clearing them up.

Firstly, I have received the details with regards to the schools admission numbers and it shows me the current numbers for all the years;
It says it’s net capacity is 418 however it is currently at 420
Each year has 60 pupils apart from years 3 & 4 that has 61 and then year 5 that has 59

Would this mean that they are currently over pan in years 3 & 4 which would mean they at some point had to take an extra child in and could that have been in reception? It isn’t a child with ECHP as they only have one child and they are in year 6. There are also no looked after children at all in the school.

Having this information, does this mean that the school has gone over PAN and so can show that they can manage it and so goes in my favour, or because they are over, will actually go against me as they are already over net capacity?? How would I “argue” this in the hearing!
(Ps I know you don’t argue but using the worst to get the point across on here)

Secondly, as I think I have explained before, I was given very bad advice with regards to going for an ECHP for my child, so should I mention this and state that I am planning on going for one which will allow funding for an extra Assistant if I get it, it would that go against my daughter as they will actually be thinking she is too much extra work than a “regular” child. Or they may wind them up in another way or it is totally irrelevant? I just want them to know that had I been given the correct info, then my daughter may have actually been in that school with a plan in the first place?

Thirdly, when applying for schools in the first place, on the online form, it asked which school you wanted and then a “reason” for your choice. Surely if a question is not relevant to the outcome of an application, a drop down selection of “medical” should not have been available in the first instance, as that could have been discriminative against my child, and also would lead me to assume that that evidence would be taken into consideration when offering places!! I wrote a detailed note of why my child should go to this school and did not fully understand until after the places were offered that this was not even looked at!? Do I have any case to fight from this part?

And lastly (for the moment), I know that the current school she has been allocated, had had one pupil a couple of years ago who was visually impaired, but they were forced to leave as it just ended up not being suitable for then moving forward. I know they are not interested in the allocated school, but is this not an important note to mention, to show that it would be far more detrimental to my daughter not to go to the preferred school that is adapted specifically for today’s standards of disabilities?

Oh and one more thing, but I decided to apply for late applications as I know at the very worst another school would be more suitable that the allocated one, but will this go against me as they will be thinking I just want any school apart from the one I have for her?

If you have ANY further advice as to how I can try and win this appeal, I would be really appreciative.

Thanks in advance for your help x

Would this mean that they are currently over pan in years 3 & 4 which would mean they at some point had to take an extra child in and could that have been in reception

I'm a bit surprised that net capacity is 418 when they have a PAN of 60. That would normally lead to a net capacity of 420. However, they are clearly over PAN in Y3 and Y4. Unfortunately, there is no way of knowing at what point the additional pupils were admitted. However, once they are over PAN a child leaving shouldn't trigger an offer of a place until they are back below PAN, particularly in Reception, Y1 and Y2 as this would be a breach of infant class size regulations. So, unless this school has very low pupil turnover or they play fast and loose with the rules, the likelihood is that the additional pupils were not admitted until Y3 or Y4.

Having this information, does this mean that the school has gone over PAN and so can show that they can manage it and so goes in my favour, or because they are over, will actually go against me as they are already over net capacity

Neither (on the assumption that you are appealing for a place in Reception). On the numbers you have given this is an infant class size appeal so arguments about the prejudice to the school will not get you anywhere. If you are appealing for Y3 or later it is a little different. It may help you in that you can argue that, if one class has 31, why can't the other class cope.

I was given very bad advice with regards to going for an ECHP for my child, so should I mention this and state that I am planning on going for one which will allow funding for an extra Assistant if I get it

This is irrelevant for your appeal. If you get an EHCP you will be able to have this school named and your child will then get a place automatically, regardless of the outcome of your appeal. If you don't get an EHCP there won't be any additional funding. The fact that you may have got a place via an EHCP if you had been given the correct information is irrelevant.

Surely if a question is not relevant to the outcome of an application, a drop down selection of “medical” should not have been available in the first instance, as that could have been discriminative against my child, and also would lead me to assume that that evidence would be taken into consideration when offering places

The Admissions Code says that the local authority must allow you to state the reasons for your choices on the application form, even though those reasons do not play any part in admission decisions. If the school concerned gives priority to pupils on medical grounds they should have looked at any evidence you supplied. However, if they don't give priority on medical grounds they have done nothing wrong. This doesn't help you.

to show that it would be far more detrimental to my daughter not to go to the preferred school that is adapted specifically for today’s standards of disabilities

I doubt the panel will be interested in the other pupil. However, if you can show that the other school is not suitable for your daughter on medical grounds and that the appeal school is that may help.

will this go against me as they will be thinking I just want any school apart from the one I have for her

The appeal panel will not be told that you are applying for other schools. Even if someone mentions it, that is not something the appeal panel should take into account.

The main issue you have is that, if this is an appeal for Reception, it is an infant class size case. That means you can only win if there has been a mistake or the decision to refuse admission was unreasonable. You haven't said anything that indicates a mistake. So your best chance is to show that your daughter's medical issues mean the decision was unreasonable. The bar for unreasonable is very high so it will depend on the evidence and the appeal panel.

Prh47bridge

Thanks for your reply.

I have sent a request to the LA to ask when those children were admitted into the school. If I find that they were in fact from reception, does that help me at all, and can I bring that up to the panel, or will they not take too kindly at me questioning certain things like that?

The school really doesn’t have a high turnover if children at all. It has a small catchment and the children that go are with families that generally don’t move from the area, so it could be very probable that they did attend from reception, but we will see.

I have also asked how they were admitted and if it was through appeal, as I have been advised there are no looked after children or any with ECHP so I don’t know for what other reason they could be in the class, unless they were twins but surely that would have been an appeal too to get them in, no?

The admissions have not made a mistake and it is purely an infant class size appeal based upon being unreasonable.

I really do know my chances, but I am just keen to know if there is ANY scope they may have at all to admit her due to her medical reasons? I have submitted letters from her senior opthalmologist surgeon and her nursery senco, along with the schools Accessibility plan, building plans, and planning permission from the council stating on one point that the build was only approved As long as it was built to adhere with physical disabilities. Also the classroom management form that states there are visual apparatus for the visually impaired. I could go on, but this school is by far the best for her to keep her independence.

She is such a shy child and with her losing her dad (not through death), I am worried that if she didn’t have the right school environment that she is going to become withdrawn and lose any chance for her to thrive in the correct setting.

Have you been on a panel, and is there anything you can tell me that I could say to help my case, even if it is only a tiny thing?

Also, does the fact that they say their net capacity is 418 but can only really ever be 420 help me in anyway. I got the figure wrong yesterday as they are currently sitting at capacity if 421 due to the two years over PAN

Is a panel going to be annoyed at me if I just take a moment to state her home life, the issue with the allocated school and then go into why she should be at the preferred school? I know I have to focus on the preferred school, but I feel I would be annoyed with myself if I didn’t just give a little bit of background at the beginning before I fought my case as such, but I also don’t want to “p” off the panel.

As I am after ANY bit of advice and reassurance (even though it won’t make any difference to the outcome) I am just going to set up another thread to see if anyone has won one recently, so just wanted you to know as I don’t want you thinking I don’t appreciate your help. I think I just want to hear other people’s experiences as this process is driving me insane! thanks

If I find that they were in fact from reception, does that help me at all

I'm afraid not. If this is an infant class size case the fact they have been over PAN previously doesn't help. If children have been admitted to Reception they will have been excepted pupils, which means they don't count towards the infant class size limit. That doesn't establish any kind of precedent that means they can admit your child. The fact they have coped with 31 in Reception before (if they have) does not alter the fact that admitting your child would be a breach of the infant class size regulations.

unless they were twins but surely that would have been an appeal too to get them in, no

No. If the last child admitted is a twin, their other twin can be admitted without appeal and without breaching infant class size rules.

I am just keen to know if there is ANY scope they may have at all to admit her due to her medical reasons

The panel can admit if they decide that the original decision to refuse admission was unreasonable. The bar for this is very high - in essence the decision must be irrational. On the information you have given there is certainly a chance that the appeal panel will conclude that the decision was unreasonable based on your daughter's disability.

Have you been on a panel, and is there anything you can tell me that I could say to help my case, even if it is only a tiny thing

I've never been on a panel but I have helped a lot of people win their appeals and have occasionally represented them. You should concentrate on your daughter's disability and explain why this means she needs to attend this school. Outline the things this school offers her that are missing from the allocated school and explain why they are important. And make sure you are clear as to what information you gave when you submitted your application.

Also, does the fact that they say their net capacity is 418 but can only really ever be 420 help me in anyway

No. That is curious but it doesn't make any difference to your appeal.

Is a panel going to be annoyed at me if I just take a moment to state her home life, the issue with the allocated school and then go into why she should be at the preferred school

I would approach this slightly differently. Talk about her home life by all means but don't spend too long on it. Then, item by item, explain what the appeal school has, how important it is to her and that this item is not available at the allocated school.

prh47bridge

I think you have answered everything perfectly for me thank you!

Your last message in particular has helped massively and I can now see in my head how I am going to present my appeal, so had better get planning it so that I don’t get flustered and get everything across that needs to be!

I am not unrealistic in my chances, but I have a little bit of hope and what is meant for her will be!

If we are the only appeal for that school, is there a chance of being told the result on that day, or will it always be the normal 5 school days by post?

So nerve wracking!

I should also say that I think the help you give to people like me is amazing, as I can see from other threads I have googled, that you have been commenting and helping people for many years.

I am sure many parents like me get so anxious at the prospect of your child starting a school that you had not planned for then in anyway, and then to have to go through an appeal stage, but you have always been very honest with your comments whether prior what to hear then or not, but they are realistic and I can honestly say that I am now ready for what comes ahead, which I wouldn’t have been had it not been for your help (and others that have given good advice)
Thank you