Violent classmates; do parent have a right to know?

[Mummywales]

Mummywales

Do parents have a right to know if our children are taught in a class with children with serious anger issues?
My daughter who is 7 has been in school with an angry boy since she began school. Ive been told he has anger management issues and is being managed. (Clear throat). He shouts /screams at her and other members of class when all are quiet working . Saying shes being naughty (she isnt) chewing (she isnt) she is wrong, uses rude words etc. This has got worse over the years. Last week he grabbed her arma behind her back and pushed her against the wall. This was because he wanted to be in front of her in line. The school have done little. They have moved him around the classroom. Sharing the anger around a little i guess. They have given him the 1st place in line so as far as im concerned they have validated his physical treatment of my daughter and justified his anger by saying he is angry with every1 not just her. He is 8. Shes 7 and the youngest in the year. The older he gets the worse the problem seems to be getting. He bangs his fists against the desk and starts shouting for no reason. He hurts his own fingers by breaking pencils. He has no 1 to 1. The teacher or teaching assistant is not near him. I feel i should have been made aware earlier that this child with his issues is/was in my childs class. His outbursts make her jumpy and cannot be having a positive influence on her emotional development. Can anyone advise on this ? Do parent have a right to know their child is being subject to outbursts daily?

Of course primary schools can exclude children. And they do! Some areas still have special schools so the worst behaving children get statements and are removed. Parents, however, generally want schools to be inclusive, when asked. LAs closed special schools because of this policy and it was often parent led because few parents wanted the special schools for EBD. Of course it was wrong for the majority and parents need to campaign to get special schools back again. Then there is somewhere to go and continue an education!

I think it’s very rare for primary schools to exclude children, and when they do it’s often a long drawn-out process.

I think you should write in to the school expressing your concerns. Keep it factual. Explain the impact on your child. Avoid appearing irrational. Avoid making comments about the other child.

It might be useful to start keeping a log of incidents - date, place, what happened. I did this when my child was regularly being physically attacked by another child. I had spoken to the teacher many times and nothing was done, so in the end I wrote to the Head with the list of incidents. Turns out she hadn’t been aware of the whole picture.

However as others have said, schools are limited in what they can do. Funding for SEND has been cut. Many schools have had to cut TAs and support workers. They are expected to be inclusive and accept all children, but not given the staff to deal with it. So the other children in the class end up losing out by having the class disrupted and being hurt. You could move your child but there’s no guarantee it will be better in another school.
However despite all this - do fight for your child. Start with Teacher - then Head if nothing improves. You may find they appreciate your complaints if it helps them build a case for the child getting extra support.

Around 1300 primary children were permanent excluded in 2016/17 according to government statistics. So it’s not incredibly rare. Mostly because of behaviour issues.

It’s no more long drawn out than it is for secondary schools. The law isn’t different. Primary schools are just less willing to implement it.

Goung on rough data that is still incredibly rare isnt it? One child per 20 schools roughly.. most schools around here have multiple children in classes who are causing disruption. Exclusion isnt happening (and properly funded inclusion presumably would be far better!)

I don't think exclusion data is that relevant here, though granted this article is not focussed on primaries.

OP should absolutely keep reporting his child's experiences and escalate. And not assume the school is doing nothing just because the child doesn't have a one to one.

Of course it's incredibly rare for a primary school child to be excluded as it should be. Parents will always want the most disruptive child got rid of. It doesn't solve the problem - it just displaces it. What needs to be done is that the child's needs should be carefully assessed and the best environment for supporting them determined. Yes this requires proper funding and that's what we should be doing. Not just hoping to throw out troublesome young kids (who with proper support could probably function well in a mainstream setting).

I have thought long on weather to post on this thread but feel I'd like to share. It has been most interesting reading the comments. I am a mummy of 4 and my youngest is one of 'those children' that you are describing.

It always guts me to hear people assume that these kids come from broken / damaged / unstable homes. I can promise you this is not always the case. We are by no means a perfect family but I can promise you my kids are all loved and I would consider my family stable and certainly not damaged.

It is absolutely sole destroying to know that your child is causing others upset and distress. I have been attacked in the street by other parents, I am included in nothing with the other parents. We are stared at and my other 3 kids are constantly referred to as the brothers of 'that child'.

My child is under diagnosis at the moment for Autism and I only say this because someone else mentioned it further up the thread. I want to assure you that we NEVER use this as an excuse and my daughter is punished every time she does something.

She has just returned to school following her second exclusion this year. She has been unstable from nursery age and no matter what we have done has changed anything. We have no electronics in the home now, we used to. We had the normal iPads, mobiles, laptops xboxes etc all have been removed out the house and are now kept at dads work office in a cupboard. I now take my older son to the library to use the internet for homework. We found that access to these things made behaviour worse. But in all honesty it hasn't stopped it.

We are fighting a loosing battle. Due to having to collect her from school regularly I have had to give up my work also. As no employer is in a position to allow you to drop everything probably around twice a week.

My mobile rings with 'School' on it at least once a day! And my heart sinks.

With regards to standing at the front of the line, I can assure you this will not be to validate the child's behaviour but simply to remove them from this 'hotspot' and be under closer supervision. Rather than fighting and hurting a child for 'who is in front'.

We are in a position were we know that my daughter would benefit from a 1:1 but can't get one due to no diagnosis yet and no funding left at school.

My daughter as a result last year spent a whole 4 months at school with no outdoor time at all. She spent every break and lunch in the reception with an iPad or colouring book as this was the easiest way to manage her.

I truly feel for your daughter and know that it is distressing to see your child hurt, one of my older children has been subject to a school bully for a full year so I have experienced it from both sides. And it truly breaks your heart. I hope your daughter gets some peace soon.

Nothing we do makes any difference to our daughter and I have asked about provision of moving her to a unit more suited to her needs. I have been told that spaces in these units are so few and far between that we would have no chance and especially without any diagnosis or outside support. So we are stuck with putting her here day in day out when I know she is upsetting kids and teachers, but if I keep her off I get fined. We are getting no help from the authorities for her I am unable to homeschool as I don't feel I could provide her with sufficient learning and also don't want her to recluse.

I honestly do not know what the answer is in these situations but wanted to say that the parents to these children a lot of the time feel awful that our kids do these things and are at a complete loss as to what to do when no one is giving any help.

It's disgusting that it is meaning that you are now contemplating moving your little girl from her school. This shouldn't be the case and I believe that if schools got more funding for support staff then a lot of these situations would be better.

Sending you and your daughter hugs x

Dear stressedmummy. When I worked for a LA, we had a number of children who were like yours. They are few and far between and I do actually understand that permanent exclusion doesn’t help. It is not, however, suitable for very needy children to be in mainstream with the elusive 1:1 support which we know isn’t funded. Never was and never will be.

We did have seriously disruptive children that had 1:1 whilst awaiting a statement. Then they went to a special school when a place was found. The key here is special schools.

Many parents don’t like them and think the difficulties their children are having are temporary. Some are, some are not. Ed psychs and experienced teachers usually know the difference. Special schools have specially trained staff. LAs closed them on the basis that most children can go to mainstream school. We now find we have a growing problem with behaviour and no specialist behaviour teachers. TAs are never trained highly enough. Schools manage behaviour issues by stopping play, temp exclusions and isolation because they cannot provide 1:1. That really is not a new situation and it’s unaffordable with delegated budgets.

All concerned parents should push very hard for statements. Parents should join pressure groups to inform the LAs and government that mainstream schools cannot cope. Children need specialist teachers, much higher staffing ratios and the chance to be allowed to be children instead of removal from school life. Good special schools allow this. Inclusivity doesn’t work for some and there are better ways of dealing with behaviour issues but there are few co ordinated voices pushing for change. The way behaviour difficulties are dealt with at the moment ruin the education of the child with the difficulties and those around them too.

My friends child was permanently excluded from primary school aged 7. Her child found the mainstream environment distressing and all the aggressive behaviour was because of this. The child was excluded because there was no special school for the child to move to ( child is not high functioning and had a diagnosis aged 3 - there were just no places). My friend has had to give up her job because of the this. Sen provision is dire.

I have been trying to find a space in a specialist behavioural school for a child with an EHCP. I have found a space for next year when she is in secondary but there isn't ONE space in any primary EBD school in my county-I know, I have tried them all! When the EHCP was granted, the proviso was that she would have to remain in mainstream school, there wasn't even the option then of a specialist primary placement. She has full time 1;1 support but, even with someone constantly by her side, still swears, screams, throws furniture, rips books. Unfortunately this means she is pretty much isolated in school, simply to keep the other children safe. I have also been told by the LA that they will fight any permanent exclusion tooth and nail as she has an EHCP! Mainstream schooling doesn't do her any good and it doesn't do the other children any good But there is no other option available.

In my friend's city there have not been any special school places available in the last 4 months. If you don't start special school in reception you have very little chance of getting a place in one. People say children should move to special school but in some areas there are no places.

There is no way anyone would punch my child in the face and get away with it. If the school wouldn't take action I would.

OP the only thing you can do in regards to the disruptive child is to raise it as a safeguarding issue. Ask the question: are you (the school) able to give my child a safe and secure learning environment? They have a duty of care and have to provide a safe environment.
I've been through this with both my DC at primary school level. The school can only discuss the safety of your child and that is what you have to concentrate on.

op you need to download the complaints process and begin to work through it.

stressedmummy - have you applied for an EHCP? If not you must do so - look at the IPSEA website.
You don't need a diagnosis for support - support is based on need and not on diagnosis.

It’s not a safeguarding issue. I wish people would read up on school safeguarding policies. This is a behaviour issue. The school’s behaviour and sanctions policy are the relevant documents. I would agree though that a violent child makes other children feel unsafe but this is not the same as a safeguarding issue.

I think some posters are thinking all special schools are the same. They are not and many don’t necessarily take all their children from age 5 if they are EBD. There should also be movement of children. I also know some areas don’t have them and many were closed down. It’s also true that children need them. I don’t, however, hear of any parent groups wanting them back and fighting for the exisnsion of existing special schools. Most people just want the “problem” child to go away.

It is a safeguarding issue because the dd is not safe.

However I'm heartened to read the majority of posts which link to funding cuts and the difficulties in trying to get any sort of extra /alternative provision.

You can have the best behaviour policy in the world. If you have a student with a defiance disorder, then the students reaction to the policy can change on an hourly basis.

I've mentioned this on here in the past but this happened in my ds's primary school, he's now 16 and in year 11.

He went to nursery with a little boy who was displaying signs of violence and anger issues, ds was attacked by him several times. They both started at the primary school and the boys behaviour got worse. He was never included in play dates, parties, sleepovers etc and ruled the class with his behaviour. Most of the class were bitten by him at some point and he would regularly trash the classroom.
Parents were at their wits end. The teachers seemed scared. Nothing was ever done. He even spat in the head teachers face.

My ds was diagnosed with aspergers at age 8. This boy started to tell people he had "anger issues" as a way of excusing his behaviour.
The boy then became a bit obsessed with ds. Wanting to be his best friend one minute and then calling him vile names the next.

When applying for secondary schools I applied to one that I knew the boy wouldn't go to and thankfully they moved on separately.
Fast forward a couple of years and he knocked at our house one day out of the blue. He said he had been diagnosed with a host of issues including asd and had been thrown out of his school for going too far. Upon talking to him I found out he had lead a very troubled life and I felt sorry that he hadn't been diagnosed much younger and could have received support, intervention etc.
Ds sees him now and again. He is still very troubled and tried to take his own life last year which saddened me, he will no doubt have a troubled future and I feel everyone ( including his own family ) pretty much gave up on him. He has since apologised to ds who has accepted his apology and accepts he isn't well. It's such a shame that some children slip through the net and don't receive the help and support they deserve.

This of course didn't make it an easy ride for primary school for ds but now he knows the full story he is more understanding of what happened.

Admit here I don't have time to read the full thread but please don't think the staff are not tearing their hair out over this!

Fighting to get funds to support these children is HARD. All of these incidents and behaviours will be being recorded and used as evidence but it doesn't happen as quickly as anybody would like.

He will have been given the front place in line, not to make him happy but to stop him doing the same to another child who gets in front. It's not fair, but it's safer.
A class of 30ish children is a lot to take on, when one of those children has the difficulties this little boy does, can you even imagine how stressful? They KNOW they need to keep the other children safe, but with no money for extra staff, how do you do that? They can't just remove him, they have to show continually that they cannot meet his needs before he will get moved- I've known it take 3 years for a child to get specialist provision elsewhere. (A year plus for one to one support in the mainstream school first).

Be upset by the situation, put it in writing, meet with the school - it might even be more evidence they can use to fight for what this boy and the other children all need! But please don't think they aren't already sorry and doing everything they can. They are only human and it breaks their hearts too.

It really should be a national uproar - teachers have been talking about funding and inability to do their job for years.... yet get ignored or told their job is easy.
^^this!
I have tried to raise awareness about funding cuts with anyone who will listen. No-one wants to know. We should be marching the streets to make this a national talking point like the NHS has become.

I know of an LA where my friend works which has just stopped even considering school requests for financial support for children with any sort of sen. There is no money so they are delaying processing support requests with no end date for this delay. EHCP requests have statutory time limits but they are getting knocked back on technicalities with the paperwork. The system is broken and there is no money. Ask anyone working in schools. It’s desperate if there’s a violent child in a primary class.

There are problems with lack of special school places across all types of special school. The child I mentioned needs an asd school but there are no places in these either. A year ago there were 2000 children with an EHCP out of school awaiting a school place. People really don't realise how bad the situation is.