Can anyone help me understand about KS2 (Y4) in year place appeals?

[RedSchoolBlueSchool]

A poster recommended I post here for advice.

I want to move my DC from current school. New school has space for Y2 and Y1 child (also space at pre-school for toddler to follow). No space for Y4 child.

What are my chances and how do i go about the appeal to get Y4 child into this school?

any advice much appreciated.

KS2 appeals are about a balance of prejudice, so you have to show that your DD needs the place more than the 'harm' to the school in having to go over number.

Check that they really are full in the year group (a quick phonecall to the school to ask how many are in year 4 will do) and if they are over number in any other KS2 classes (that will help your case to show that they can go over number - they've done it before). However, the flip side of that, is that if they are already over number significantly in the school, they could argue that they are already bursting at the seams. You'll get their net capacity diagrams and calculations, so you will be able to see how much flex they should have.

Look at what the school has to offer your DD. Don't just say that you want her to be with siblings. Definitely don't say that you don't want to do two school runs, or that transport will be difficult - the panel will have no regard for it. Make it about your DD and what the benefit of attending this school will be for her.

the new school run mixed age group classes, so there are currently 49 in Y4 but that is split over a Y3/4 class, a Y4 and a Y4/5 class - not sure if that makes it better or worse from an appeal point of view as the numbers in each class change year on year.

willingness to challenge bright kids at a higher level (DC is very bright)
faith school with daily worship.
a focus on inventive/creative play at all ages which suits the DC's personality
forest school past infant years - DC very nature/outdoor oriented.

does mentioning that I am a SAHM with willingness and time to help with trips/reading with kids/PTA make any difference?

Do you know who makes up an appeal panel?

Starting from the end of your post:

The panel will usually be made up of 3 people. At least one must be a 'lay-person', that is, a person with no experience of having been employed in the education sector, and at least one must be a non-lay person, which means that they have been employed in the education sector. The panel will also have a chair person. Nobody on the panel will have any connection to the school or the Local Authority, so they can be impartial.

does mentioning that I am a SAHM with willingness and time to help with trips/reading with kids/PTA make any difference?

No, not at all. This is about your child, not about your ability to help the school. Also, you'd presumably be willing to help wherever they went to school? Taking it wider, a panel couldn't not award a place because a child didn't have a willing parent to help a school, so it just can't be a consideration.

The reasons you give are all nice ones.

The key with the class sizes is to see how big the classes are as a whole, because you may be able to argue that although they are nominally full for year 4, there is space to accommodate your child in the class, due to underfilling in year 3, for example.

If they run mixed year classes, you'll also have to look on to whether year 2 and year 5 are a big year group, and what impact an extra child would have when she becomes year 5 and the year 5s become year 6, because of something called 'future prejudice'. So if year 4 is already a big year group, and year 5 is, say, 3 over number already, and year 2 are 2 over number, they could say that next year, when they become year 5/6, there will be too many to safely accommodate. The risk of that is slightly lower in this case, I would think, because the year group is split over 3 different years (yr3/4, yr4, yr4/5) so they should still have a degree of flex.

Generally speaking, it will come down to how big the school is, how oversubscribed it is already, and how much of a fight the LA is willing to put up. The harder they argue, the stronger your case has to be. I have been in appeals where a HT has said "Oh no, we'd love to take another child, the more the merrier..." - the LA rep despairs, but job done.

thanks lougle that's all very helpful.

Is the decision made on the day or do they go away and we have to wait to hear?

Is the HT's opinion crictical in this? so if the HT says 'yes please' that will get him in?

The decision is made on the day, but you usually get the decision in writing within 3-5 days of the hearing, because the panel have to deliberate. Also, there may be more than one appeal for the same school, which may lead to a decision about which child/children can be allowed places.

The HT's testimony can be critical if they say they have room, which shouldn't happen, tbh. The HT is meant to represent the LA's position that the school is full. But they do sometimes say that they have space and can take a child/children, because it is better for their budget to be over number, or they genuinely don't have a problem with taking a child. Then you wouldn't need much of an argument to tip things in your direction.

As for whether it is critical in other ways, it won't have any more weight than any other evidence - the panel will look at all the evidence impartially. So general statements such as "Oh yes, the school is very crowded, we're very full" don't carry much weight, and can (should!) be challenged by you. However, if you asked for, say, specific examples of problems caused by overcrowding, and the HT said:
-We have a very small playground and already have to keep one class inside each break time on a rota basis, to make the playground safe for the rest of the school.
-There aren't enough desks in year 4 already, so 3 children are having to share a table for 2 in 2 of the classes.
-Class 3 seems quite big in m², but it's L-shaped, so the teacher can only use ⅓ of it for whole class teaching.
-Class 2 seems quite big in m², but it has windows all along one wall with cupboards underneath, and another wall is a shared wall with a double door to another classroom, so the space to arrange desks is much smaller than the footprint.
-The building is old and the school hall was built at a time when the school was half of its size. We already have to have a floor plan for seating the children in order to fit them all in for assembly, and we have had children overheating in the summer months.

That sort of evidence would heighten the case of the school, so your case would have to be even stronger to overcome theirs.

Does that make sense?

That is brilliant lougle thank you so much. Makes things much clearer.

The HT did say that appeals are looked on more favourably if there are siblings in the school, which we can do as there is space for our younger 2 so that should help.

How to a make what i say 'evidence' rather than just my say so? or is it just that i need a very good sales pitch?

Sorry, bombarding you with questions, i feel a bit out of my depth and just want the best for my DC.

The HT did say that appeals are looked on more favourably if there are siblings in the school

That isn't supposed to be a consideration for the appeal panel. However, it suggests that the HT may not put up as strong a case to refuse entry.

How to a make what i say 'evidence' rather than just my say so

If you can back things up with documentary evidence that helps. On the points you raise, I would try to come up with something that supports the fact that inventive/creative play suits your child and something to support your child being very outdoor/nature oriented. Don't take examples of your child's work. A letter from their current teacher or a youth leader (if your child is in Scouts, Guides or similar) is the kind of thing that carries weight.