Violence in primary school

[Carrotsandcauliflower]

Looking for some advice on this.
My kids are at primary school, eldest was attacked a few months back, by another kid in his year, (6) the other kid was annoyed at loosing a football match they were both playing during play time.
The kid grabbed my son who is smaller- the offending child is stocky and much taller, threw him to the ground and then repeatedly kicked him while a couple of friends tried to intervene. They ran to get a teacher who was near by and the whole thing ended there.
The kid was kept in for a week from play.
So then this week, my youngest was playing with a couple of friends, the big kid came and took their ball, so one of the boys also year 3 takes the ball back- and gets thrown to the ground and repeatedly kicked. Other kids tried to break it up but couldn’t and ran to get a teacher. This time the child has been given a “yellow card” I believe he has to clean in school this week from what my kids have said.
Thing is my kids don’t see this level of violence on telly, or in films, or on games, but they have gone to school and seen this, and sadly experienced it in real life. Not really what we signed up for when we were choosing a school. I’m really determined that I don’t want them having to see this kind of thing again. I’d be freaked out if I saw that happen to another adult.
What would you expect from the school? I don’t feel like my kids are safe around this kid who has an obvious violent streak. There have been other minor incidents that I know of also, and I am fully convinced that it will happen again, just because it’s so extreme and it happened almost the same way twice already.

My child is violent at school. He's 8 and just diagnosed ASD. His behaviour was triggered by a shouty authoritative teacher who belittled and humiliated him and the downward spiral started. Once he felt the shame and ridicule of being excluded and outcasted by peers and teachers, he was never going to turn around. It took a year to get any form of assessment and plan. He is still waiting to be seen by CAMHS. School have no funding to help children like this without going through the same process which takes a year or more.

The local PRU has closed down as it failed ofsted across the board. There are no special schools suitable and the ones that are unsuitable have a waiting list of 2 years.

He just doesn't go to school now. He's not wanted anywhere and his education is over. He has an EHCP plan with a small amount of funding which apparently is the most they will give but schools say it isn't enough to have him in the school.

My boy lovely boy is a suicide risk at 8 years old with no hope of education and is an outcast in our town because there isn't the right support for him. Things aren't always as simple as they look.

@Strugglingatwork Do you have anyone in your corner? Have you had a family assessment for support, a carers assessment?

Is the school you want named in the EHCP. Have they formally refused to accept him? Have you appealed the allocated hours/ financial bundle as inadequate?

Do you have an LEA inclusion team who may offer support?

What about a local families advisory service with a SEN coordinator (I found ours through the local council website)?

A lot of questions but dont give up. If you can just win people over to your need one at a time you can make progress for him and you.

At 8 my autistic son was momentarily out of education. Something went very wrong at one setting. We did find another setting where he didnt actually get an education, vague supervised childminding at best. Mummy we had a special visitor at school today so i was sent to the office, mummy the brass band came today so I did litter picking. Then after phenomenal effort and a move we got a place at an autism provision linjed to a mainstream. Now yr 10, it's a tough time of year, but he's in a good provision managing in school on track for some GCSE's. Something I'd never have dreamed of when I think back to yr 4.

We've had every assessment known to man and all agencies involved. Funding has been appealed but it's all red tape and excuses. I'm sure eventually the funding will be increased but it's all too late now as he's out of school. I doubt very much that he'll ever go back to school unless we move to a new area with autism schools and start over but we can't for many other reasons.

I don't want to derail the thread with my pity party but this post resonated with me as everything that is being thought about these violent children was what we were on the receiving end of - anger, hatred, ostracised, complaints, disdain and a lot of blaming on lack of funding.

A lot of these children have nowhere to go and will end up at home just like my son and will be a huge burden to society in the long run. The legacy of the current education and SEN cuts will be staggering for all in the future.

For me it's not the violent children I'm angry at, its the lack of support for them, their peers and hands on staff. It's the way everything is just swept under the carpet because of cuts people have given up following process, documenting incidents and applying for support.

We have to keep up the fight until enough of us are fighting that a momentum builds people weaken to the reality of what's happening and things change.

@strugglingatwork it's no pity party it's a blunt tough reality. Its one people need to read about, see it from both sides and understand this is the effect the lack of funding in our education system is having now. The long term implications for a generation of SEN children are petrifying.

' I rather suspect that if a teacher was attacked, there might be a different outcome.' You are so very, very wrong. Teachers are verbally and physically attacked on a regular basis in far too many mainstream UK schools nowadays and nothing ever seems to be done about it, other than criticism from parents and from senior management that the teacher must have done something to trigger the violence.

You are incorrect. Children that physically attack teachers in the manner described by the op are excluded. Regularly. Exclusions of primary children are at record levels.

LJdorothy - if a child threw a teacher to the ground and kicked them multiple times, I think the child would be excluded!!

Not necessarily true. In my kids' school, there are a couple of children who have physically assaulted staff a number of times - perhaps mot throwing to the ground but certainly kicking and punching. The children have not been excluded. The staff carry on - patiently, caringly, concernedly - trying to use every strategy in the book to allow the children to carry on in mainstream school and access an education. The amazing and massively over-worked Senco endlessly tries to squeeze money and help out of all the various agencies. And the results have been amazing - the children have made incredibly good progress, and their behaviour now compared to how it was before all this support was put in place is far, far better - perhaps an incident every term rather than every other day. But other parents in the school don't get to see this - all they see is the one violent incident in a term and assume that nothing is being done and the child needs to be expelled.

You do have to question whether mainstream is actually the best place for these children though. It shouldn’t be the holy grail. Special schools are better resources and have specialist teachers although these schools are now difficult to access. Mainstream isn’t always the best outcome and transition to secondary produces fresh nightmares.

I don't disagree with you Bubbles, but finding the right specialist provision to realise the potential of two very academically able children with significant behaviour problems really does feel like an impossible task in the current world we live in.

I meant to say, strugglingatwork I'm so sorry to hear about your situation. And I think it illustrates why the school in the situation I'm talking about is desperate to avoid exclusion. This could so easily be the outcome for these children. I truly hope you find the right place for your son. xx

We have experienced three violent children in two primary schools and all were allowed to continue wreaking havoc (including hospitalising other children, breaking windows and computer equipment and disrupting the timetable - one refused to do PE and would kick off so much that his class didn’t do PE that year). But as soon as a teacher was assaulted, they were excluded or moved to PRU. One child caused hell from preschool until halfway through year 6. Sadly my children think it’s normal. I don’t think anyone wins from having these violent children in mainstream school with insufficient support (apart from the accountants counting their cost savings).

As parents we are left crossing our fingers that a teacher gets in the way of the next punch or flying chair as that seems to be the only way to get a respite. It’s all very sad really.

BubblesBuddy the PRU in my LEA offers only 6, part-time Primary placements.

My ENTIRE county (which is quite large) has ZERO specialist Primary SEMH placements. ZERO. There are also no SEMH placements for girls at any age. When challenged about this, the party line is that the mainstream schools need to 'step up' and make provision.

Glibly suggesting a mainstream school can easily shunt a pupil with challenging behaviour along to another setting is ludicrous.

I don’t know a single head that would suspend the curriculum for a year because of one child. Definitely not in any school I know. Primary exclusions have been rising so some schools are clearly excluding.

Some LAs do have special schools. Mine does. We have a low AWPU though. We have nearly double the percentage of statements in the school population when compared to neighbouring LAs. It depends on where the LA sees the priorities.

I am amazed schools are so slow to think about where these children should be educated and put pressure on the LA. No Head I’ve ever worked with would have put up with the behaviour described above for years. However I think this behaviour is increasing and children will see it. I don’t know why it’s increasing. I think targeted support much much earlier would help. Pre nursery probably but that means labelling parents and children and we shy away from that.

It’s not ludicrous where I live. We still have the schools. We have expended them.

I think you are in Bucks? I have worked in a Primary SEMH school there and I know it is absolutely fabulous. I also know it's been expanded and that it is not the only provision for Primary SEMH in Bucks.

Please don't think all LEAs have the same availability of SEMH provision though, it makes you sound ignorant.

I didn’t say they did. I was advocating for that provision to be made. If no one puts up a fight for such provision, it won’t happen.

I was also making the point that some parents will consider nothing but a mainstream school. LAs need to offer a variety of provision and parents and school leaders need to work together to affect change.

They can exclude this child. He could go to a PRU. I’m amazed he’s not in one to be honest....the school can certainly negotiate for him to go to a PRU . So why haven’t they?

We're either of your children marked by these attacks? As the attacker is 10 or 11 they are over the age of criminal responsibility so I would have referred both matters to the police.

All local authorities have to ensure there is alternative provision for children not in school. The school census of 2017 shows there are 48,000 children in alternative provision. Some LAs might broker places in neighbouring LAs. It’s not a rosy picture because there isn’t enough provision and the govt wishes to tackle this. However there is some alternative provision in every LA. It just might not be very obvious but Heads should certainly be aware of it whether it’s in their LA or not.

Bubbles - the alternative provision in our LEA is 1-2hrs tutoring per week if you can get a consultant to write and say you're not fit for school or if you are pex'd. Getting a consultant letter, being referred and accepted to tutoring can take a year.

If you think that's an 'alternative' worth writing home about that you are even more ignorant that you sound on your posts. I wish people would just accept that there isn't always another option.

Your LA can broker deals with other LAs. And stop calling me ignorant. It’s rude and uncalled for. With 48,000 children in alternative provision (not a few hours at home) it is clear provision is widespread although not necessarily available immediately.

We live over 40 miles from any neighbouring LEA so that isn't a viable option.

Your posts are rude and uncalled for. You can't believe anything but your own opinions. Not everyone is experiencing anything like what you are talking about.

Bubbles, you do take your own local experiences and expound them as the facts. It is something of a pattern to your posting.