Need a good maths app that practices real basics - Y2 but v behind

[drspouse]

DS is in Y2 but honestly I think he's come backwards on maths since Reception (when he said it was his favourite subject). He is totally resistant and if there's the slightest hurdle he gives up.
He can just about
Add up if he uses manipulables and you keep a close eye on him to make sure he isn't counting wrong. He could probably do this up to 100.
He can't remember that you don't need to count the first number again if you know what it is (e.g. you'll say, here's 5, and here's 2 more, how many have you got? and he'll start by counting the 5 again).
Subtract ditto
Count up to 100 but with a few glitches. When I say he's going backwards, he's started writing e.g. 61 as 16 and he STILL (not sure he ever stopped) reads 60 as Sixteen and 16 as Sixty, sometimes.
Count in 2s up to 20.

He can barely
Remember what + and - and = are
Count in 5s - probably to 20? though I heard him saying 5, 10, 15, 16.
Remember a few of his number bonds (e.g. he can just about tell me that if he has 3 apples and I give him 2 more, he'll have 5, without counting).

He can't at all
Count in 10s
Remember what x and division sign are

School have My Maths for homework but it only works on a desktop meaning that we sit DS down on the computer chair, he can't do a sum on the screen, we get him to try with the manipulables, he loses his place on the screen, he gets frustrated and gives up (he is also awaiting assessment for ADHD and has a microsecond's attention span and floor level resistance to frustration...)

They have another system we have a login to but when we tried the maths on that it went much too fast for him (it has fish and bubbles? I can't remember the name though).

Everything I've tried has oodles and oodles of practice with single digit names and then leaps ahead with about 2 goes at adding single digits which zip past much too fast.

[I am sorry this is a bit long. tl;dr is, I suppose, what I said earlier: 'pickingdaisies is right: 'give him actual objects to count' really is the way to go. ]

drspouse:
for example:
We have a game where people get on a bus with + signs or - signs

Yes, I think that is a good example of what I was trying to say: ' the people ' getting on the bus is abstract in the sense that the child has to just think about them, rather than manipulating (better not try!) them as physical objects. So, move down a level of abstraction and have actual objects for the child to play with: Lego people on the farm (physical things the child can pick up and move about)? ... Or, how many blocks in this tower? ... how many more can I put on before it falls? ... can you take some away from the bottom without it falling over? ... what if you take just one off the top? ... and so on and so on. Or sheets of paper that fold to make a booklet. Or beads that can be strung on a thread, taken off, put on the other end ...

Think, again, of your example of the dice. The dots on a dice are, essentially a kind of numeral, albeit they are physical dots that can themselves be counted; what the child cannot do is treat those dots as though they were themselves concrete physical objects to move about. So, again, think of the level of abstraction the child is stuck at and move down to a more concrete level; get something physical to be counted, added, subtracted ...

Do not frame this to your child as 'doing maths' or 'practising numbers'. You are playing with beads on a string to make a bracelet, ... or making a booklet to draw pictures in or write a story, whatever. This is where the 'stealth' comes in. Once the child has 'got' the idea that three beads taken off one end and four (count them!) put on the other end results in an increment of one overall, you might think of talking of numbers, adding, subtracting etc. But that is a move to a more abstract level; best not to do it too soon.

5p coins, another good example. In a sense, the child is wholly correct to think that if you have coins representing 15, and you add one coin, you will end up with 16. But something is going wrong! What? Again, think of levels of abstraction - go back and swap the 5p coins for piles of 5 1p coins; then count in 5's.

This is all a bit tricky, I know, but really the trickiness derives from the complexity of the concepts we are helping the child to grasp, much of which is far from apparent to us grownups as we perform what seem to us simple enough tasks.

' the people ' getting on the bus is abstract in the sense that the child has to just think about them, rather than manipulating (better not try!) them as physical objects.
They are physical cards.
If you ask him "so you had 4 and you've put 2 on how many now?"
he will either refuse to try, or he'll just count all 6.
He loves board games and we never frame it as practicing numbers.
He just refuses to try and add using any method other than counting all the objects, and he refuses to try and subtract.

We do all those things with physical objects, dots on a dice etc. but he just either counts everything, or refuses to count.

If we had piles of 1p coins he would either a) still count the 4th pile as "16" or b) count every single one every single time and refuse to even try to count by 5s.

As I say, it is all not helped at all by his attention problem - 4 piles of 5 1p coins is a set of very small objects and if he tried to count them, I can pretty much guarantee he'd either go wrong somewhere in the middle, or lose interest, and then give up when he got it wrong.

I'm not at all sure he'd understand that 5 1p coins = 1 5p coin TBH. But he might be interested in giving me 5 1p coins for my 1 5p coin.

I am wondering now if the key problem right now is a lack of understanding of the maths, throwing him off, leading to the refusal to do anything.
Or rather the key problem is his difficulty with attention, leading him to become distracted, leading him to not learn the maths.

Either way, it must be tough on his confidence, which might perpetuate the problem as he won't even try, independent of the problem lying in his attention or in his maths.

If you feel that the 'underlying' problem is the maths, then I guess PPs suggestion of going down levels of abstraction until you reach one where he is comfortable is worth a try.
But if you feel that he would be capable of the maths at current level of abstraction but cannot get to grips with it because he stops paying attention after a short time/after the first obstacle, then perhaps tackling that problem first/in parallel is advised? E.g. activities that build resilience (to keep going when meeting an obstacle; totally not maths related to start with), and/or activities designed to 'train' attention span? Also confidence-building, and making sure he's not starting to think of himself as 'incapable of maths'.

On another note, my DS (now Y4) is fairly able at maths but at this stage in Y2 he would very often go back to counting on fingers, counting on rather than adding up, using all those 'safe' strategies they had been taught and told to use in Y1 rather than the faster, smarter ways of doing things they were learning in Y2. He too seemed to be 'going backwards' as he had been able to add, using strategies like 'near doubles' or 'multiples of ten as stepping stone, using number bonds' in reception, but in the beginning of Y2 if confronted with 47+6 he would count on, using fingers. And be very resistant to doing anything else.

I partially blame the school, and this may be the case with your DS as well. There is such a huge focus in Y1 on getting the children to really understand addition as putting two amounts together and counting them all. DS was encouraged/made to 'count on' and use counters, and he was always keen to do exactly as told. It took him a good while to realise it was now ok/expected to move on!

I think it's both, @brilliotic, but a lot of it is confidence.
His attention problems mean he struggles with other things e.g. he loses track in the middle of a word he's sounding out. But he's not actively resistant to phonics and he's happy to "write" a shopping list etc (no way can we read it but that's OK!).
But any mention of numbers or an attempt to practice them - you can't see him for dust.
He could maybe just do 4+6 on fingers/blocks but 47+6 wouldn't even be worth trying.
On Mathseeds I've set him at a really really easy level to give him a bit of confidence and repetition, though at that level the videos tell him almost nothing (rather than saying, you have to touch the objects you're counting, they just say, I love buttons! Not helpful when he then didn't realise- and nor did I - that it won't move on without touching them).
And so far so good with Maths 4-6.

I know, my DS was/is as I said, fairly able at maths. My point was more the resistance to doing actual mental addition, rather than counting everything, could in part stem from them having been taught, over and over, to count everything.

I think if you keep going with MathsSeeds you'll soon get used to the various formats of the exercises. It is far from perfect, there are some exercises that appear randomly that are just beyond the child's abilities at that point, or that appear unintroduced; but mostly it is a good tool IMO. I'd say your key criteria here should be 'is it engaging enough for him to keep 'on task' for a little while?' and accept that it won't be a perfect solution, every now and then he will be thrown off by a lag/bug/inadvertently shutting it off/ ... but still getting it out again the next day.

I'd consider giving him the Dragonbox 'Numbers' (and perhaps 'Big Numbers') as a game, a treat, something he is 'allowed' to do e.g. as a reward or as consolation for having to wait or such.

I am not particularly sure he's actually grasped that counting on is a good way to add, or really what addition is!
I think he knows he can count (reasonably accurately) so that's what he's happy to do in any number circumstance. Whether it gives an answer that's anywhere near what he needs or anything to do with what he's being asked is irrelevant to him - he's doing what he is comfortable doing.

It's a bit different with reading - he guesses if he can't sound something out, but he's attempting to get to "reading the words on the page", just via a rather unhelpful route. With numbers, he's not even sure where he's heading.

Wanted to just add a thank you to whoever suggested the Plus One book and Squeebles apps - the book means sitting with DS to work through stuff, but even though it starts incredibly basic, he seems to be enjoying it.

It sounds like he is hung up on getting the "right" answer and as soon as he doesn’t, or if solving the calculation looks like it might be difficult, he gives up. I think that most apps will just reinforce this as the player has to get the one right answer (possibly quickly) in order to progress.

As people have mentioned, try Numicon or real objects and try framing questions as investigations e.g. "how many ways are there" to make 10, share out 12 sweets, spend 20p in the shop.

Play board-games (Ludo or Snakes and Ladders) but work together to find a couple of possible solutions and get him to choose the next move. Darts is also good, but I think the numbers may be too big at the moment.

Model using maths in real life, voicing your thought-processes out loud, and give him "non-mathematical" opportunities for problem-solving and developing resilience. What is his memory like - is he not confident in remembering the starting number or not grasping that it doesn't change within the calculation. Play some memory and matching games - you'll get plenty of apps for those.

OP - how’s your DS getting on? I one was of those recommending Maths 4-6, and I’d love to know if it was any use.

Have you considered more about why? Look into working memory and processing.

@Cabbagesoupsucks
My Ds has both working memory and processing problems but I haven't found anything that helps with that.

Do you have advice on what I should be doing??

As an addition to build wider skills including some maths, fine motor and concentration I would suggest board games played as a family and card games. Having fun will help him learn without the pressure. He won't even realise!

Also 'mathematical' type toys, Lego, k-nex.

Mathseeds is great really recommend it!

Doodlemaths worked wonders for ds. 5-10 mins a day , 5 -6 days a week . Within 2 months you could tell he was more confident. It starts where your child is a d doesn't move on to new concepts until the child is secure in the previous ones.

Can you get a set of hundreds, tens and units (physical blocks) and just get him to do random number sums? Seeing it physically in front of him may help

DD Y2 is also struggling. We have done the first Power of 2 book online which starts with simply counting and ordering. You have to answer each question 3 times to open the next page. It move on to number bonds etc. We did 10 minutes a day and rewarded her with a trip to a dessert parlour once complete.

We are now on the second book.

Thought I'd update as I'm looking for the next level.
We tried a few apps including a trial of Numberseeds, it was REALLY clunky.
We have really really liked Maths 4-6, he's highly motivated to do it (for all those who said he'd do better with blocks etc, maybe he would but he just wouldn't actually use them!)
He's nearly finished all 18? 20? levels so I think we will

He is also now better at using blocks, counting money etc so most of it has transferred. He has a few blind spots e.g. a couple of the decades in counting to 100. He's also on meds for ADHD but a lot of what he can now do is concepts rather than attention.
The other day he had an addition worksheet and we suggested he show DD what he could do so he trotted off and got some Lego and did the sums and checked his answers too!

Oops
I think we will try Squeebles next.

We tried Squeebles after Maths 4-6 but ended up with a lot of playing (making characters bounce and make noises) and not much maths. Doodlemaths was better, but you do have to get over the hump of the assessment test, which carried on until they get several questions wrong - so rather long and dispiriting, but good after that.

Oh good to know.
I see you get a 7 day trial with Doodle Maths too, the others are just pay for the app.

I've been looking at some of the books recommended on here and I'm pretty sure looking at a single page of drill would ensure DS ran for the hills

You have a 1-1 so presumably he has significant issues. I am just wondering if you have a had a full work up and diagnosis of his problems. Like someone above I have a child with a number of issues including both working memory and processing problems possibly ASD with PDA and with some ADHD traits and hyper mobility... it goes on and on. He does not have a 1-1 though as in many ways is very high functioning (I hate that term though!).

However, if your child is already refusing... I think I would be looking at building their confidence in whatever they are doing rather than concentrating on outcome. A child who is refusing may be very anxious as they fear comparison/know they will struggle... or one who has already given up.

Lulu can I ask how you go about getting a "full work up"? DS here, diagnosed with autism but we don't have much other info. Would we be looking at a private appointment with a... ed psych?

He has a diagnosis of ADHD as you will see from the thread. And he's been doing amazingly well, and loving, learning things from the current app.
If we left it to school and never pushed him to do anything new he'd be back counting to 10 every lesson.

Try the mathswithmum website at:

www.mathswithmum.com/

They have a lot of videos and online practice questions going through lots of primary maths topics. Particularly good for building an understanding of the basic concepts.