Large vs Small primary schools- please tell me what you like/dislike about them

[Thelonggrass]

Hi. Any feedback on this point gratefully received. We’re making a decision between a number of schools, they all have different pros/cons to be considered, but one of the biggest differences is size. One is a two form entry and the school itself is full, the others are one form entry/not yet full. I suppose I’m particularly looking for feedback from those who have children at a two form entry school. Does the size impact negatively in any way? I can imagine there are lots of benefits a big school brings as well.

Thank you.

My DDs went to a 3 form entry for infants and then the same size for junior. So our schools were bigger than yours. I am a governor at a 2 form entry school though.

I think it depends on the school, the child and whether it is just an infant school, a junior school or a primary school from 4-11. My children wanted, and needed, lots going on with a variety of children as possible friends. Smaller schools can be very good for YR and Y1 but as they mature, not all the children mature at the same rate and sometimes a bigger pond of friends and abilities is desirable. Girls can also fall out and need more friendship options when they are older too!

Contrary to some people, I believe a 2 form entry school teacher and head will know the children just as well as the 1 form entry school. Children seem to mature a bit more and grow in confidence in a larger school too. My DDs loved school and wanted to learn so cuddles and play were never on our agenda. I think you need to look at what school would suit your children as well as size.

I think I would also look at what they can do outside the curriculum. Many larger schools have better music, better sport and many more clubs. They can be more inspiring places to learn. My DDs infants school was brilliant and there was no need to worry about so many in the year group, as some people did, because the teaching and opportunities were better than the smaller village schools.

However, if the 2 form school is full, do you have any choice over size?

I think small schools feel reassuring and personal but can become a bit claustrophobic. Id worry about a small not full school financially a bit.

Big schools can feel a bit impersonal but then having more teachers with more expertise is good.
So really a well run school is the best school.

My kids have been at 1,2 and 3 entry form schools. The one form entry school had 30 kids per year.

Personally I think that 2 form entry is better than 1 form entry. There is a bigger pool of potential friendships, bigger pool of teachers (no chance of a teacher who you don't along with teaching your child twice), more clubs
, team opportunities and less intense as everybody doesn't know everybody else in the playground.

The advantage of a small school is that it feels homely. My DC know all the teachers through out the school, lots of the older children too and feel at home all through the school. The teachers knowing the children well is a real advantage when they move year groups or have lessons taught by a different teacher (e.g. french, PE). In general my kids feel comfortable and secure. They also get more of a chance to be on the team, have a part in the school play etc. You get to know (and get quite fond) of all the other children in their year too which is nice.

The disadvantage is obviously less choice of friends. If you have a quirky child there's less chance of them finding a kindred spirit. Obviously if friends fall out or there's a personality clash they can't avoid each other so easily. Sometimes there'll be less facilities and variety of clubs available (as less money to go round with smaller numbers). You can't be anonymous - everyone will know you and your child (this is a matter of personal taste).

What I like about (lots of) large schools is that there is such a large pool of staff, meaning that there is usually a lot more on offer in terms of clubs and sport, and also interventions and specific expertise. At our school there are staff who put on an amazing musical show, there is a digital newspaper group, numerous sports groups for all skills and abilities, varied skilled support for sen, art club, loads of music opportunities. Also, the teachers are often less burned out because there are more people to cover all the curriculum areas.

My dc have been to 2 very small primaries and one full 1 form entry primary (so still not big).
Small primaries can be lovely, friendly and non-scary for little children. However they can also lack resources and a decent number of suitable friends for your child. Teaching is often in mixed year groups, which can be a problem. My ds was fine when he was in the youngest year in the class, but is now coasting and bored out of his mind. The future of a small primary can be precarious due to variation in pupil numbers and in popularity. Ds' primary has had a big influx of kids from other local small primaries, which is great for our school, but in a couple of years the shoe could be on the other foot.

I think 1-2 form entry is fine. Any bigger than that might put me off. (I'm a teacher btw, if that makes any difference!).

Not small. Give your children plenty of choice of friends. A tiny intake means your D.C. could get stuck
With a tiny gene pool of kids they don't get on with. That's my experience anyway! My kids went to big and small primaries. The bigger ones were better, and better resourced

2 form entry is not a large school!

Advantages in general of larger schools are more money and resources, plus greater number of children means more likely to have things like sports teams/music groups. Also a greater chance your child will find a likeminded friend (and be able to find another friend in Y4 when they fall out horribly).
The disadvantage of a larger school would be that it can feel impersonal, but I really don't think 2 form entry is large enough to feel that.

Advantage of a smaller school tend to be a more family type atmosphere- everyone knows everyone else. Disadvantages are a smaller pool of friends and less likely to find someone you get on with. And nowhere to h ide if you fall out. Also if your child is likely to an outlier academically, they may find this hard (thread on board at the moment about a child who is "top" of their small Y1 class and her parent is wishing that she had someone of the same standard.

What worked well for us was a 2 form entry infants (where they appreciated the smaller size school and more nurturing environment) and a 4 form entry juniors (where the greater range of opportunities and more scope for friends was more important). (we didn't choose this as such, these were just our catchment schools and the only ones they could get into). There were lots of children who moved to DC's juniors from small schools because their small school started to feel claustrophobic as they got older.

The advantage of a small school is that it feels homely. My DC know all the teachers through out the school, lots of the older children too and feel at home all through the school. The teachers knowing the children well is a real advantage when they move year groups or have lessons taught by a different teacher (e.g. french, PE). In general my kids feel comfortable and secure.

I could have written all of this about my dcs' Primary school - which was 3 form entry.

IMO, the disadvantage of 1 form is the inability to split classes / separate out or 'spread out' the dc who clash or who need a great deal more attention.
In terms of teams / orchestra / plays / choirs etc - statistically you are likely to have more dc wanting a place, but you are also likely to have more opportunities available. So the chances of 'getting a place' are the same.

My DC both went to 4 form primary, DS is at secondary now and DD is year 5. It is a big school, but it has never felt impersonal, and both have been happy there.

They have some great resources due to economies of scale - have been particularly impressed by music and other extra curricular activities.

Wraparound care gets very booked up - there are not enough places at after school club to go round.

I don’t know a single school that doesn’t offer every child a part in a Christmas play or end of year production. Some parts are bigger than others and some parts will be reserved for the y6 or Y2 children depending on the school. Every child does something if they want to.

I agree with Backforgood. Parents who have children in small schools always think children are “lost” in bigger schools. They are not. They have their routines, their TAs helping, non teaching heads who know everyone, their class teachers, who, in larger schools, know the children in exactly the same way as in smaller schools. My children were recognised and known by the Heads because they met and greeted children every single morning. They monitored teaching in the classrooms, they took lessons and they really bothered to deliver a broad education to the children because of the diverse skills held by the staff.

The main thing is: is it a good school? Some village schools around me were cosy and had a family feel but were limited in what they offered, and that included a high quality education.

Judge by your instinct, not class size. Is there a positive buzz? Are children excited by learning? I have seen large and small schools work as a teacher and as a parent - and have seen them fail too.

I’ve got four DC, age range 17-5, we’ve moved several times and have definitely found bigger primary schools to be better, unless you’ve grown up in the area of the local small school and are part of the network that compensates for its deficiencies.

We’re lucky that all four of ours have enjoyed aquiring academic skills and we have had a settled family life so far.
I have noticed that children who are different from the norm have a much harder time at smaller schools. Whether this be a challenge they’ll live with forever or a big life change (bereavement or divorce), small schools can be very homogenised and find it difficult to cater for deviations.

Not only would I prefer the support of a wider, more understanding community if my own DC were struggling, I want them to meet people who are very different from them, to be the people they were meant to be and to find their own tribe.

More pragmatically, the transition to secondary (which can be much trickier than starting primary) is easier from a larger school.

Bigger schools all the way!

We chose small and v local because we thought it would be more like a family, but it was too small: if the kids fell out there were so few other potential friends. In hindsight I think a larger school might have been better.

One form entry experience only. Y2 now and so far it’s been great. Good wrap round core, good sports/music etc offer, parents very engaged. School finances are probably tighter than in larger schools - fewer economies of scale. But friendship wise it’s been absolutely fine, and they know everyone in the school and have great relationships with older and younger pupils.

Mine started off at a 2 form entry, going to 3 form in KS2 primary. It was the wrong place for them - the younger one (who didn't start there in the end) would have been completely lost there and for various reasons the setup was just sending the eldest one's anxiety through the roof.

In the end they moved to a 2 form entry infants, feeding into a 2 form entry juniors and that seems to be a much better fit in terms of scale and social opportunities for both of them - the younger one at least gets noticed when she's struggling socially with the size of it.

School works very very closely in collaboration with another school in the area to share resources, expertise and offer a wider net in terms of things like school sports etc though.

Thank you everyone for your feedback. I hadn’t really appreciated that there were larger schools elsewhere, as the ones in this area are either one or two form entry - so that was small or large to me! I hadn’t heard of three/four forms but knowing that helps put my choice into perspective a little.

I absolutely agree that the feel that parents get for the school is vital, and that will probably be the deciding factor for me. We are large town so the smaller one form entry schools are not small village-type schools as such. Just single class or ruse group. Some are new schools and so filling up the year groups slowly. Others already fully established.

I will give it some further thought! Thanks again.

*single class year group

The dc went to a 2 form entry and the facilities were much better than the one form. I wonder if pastoral care would have been better at the one form entry one though. Perhaps incidents of unkindness/kids being excluded would have been noticed more in a 1 form. The 1 form school definitely seemed very caring and lovely.

to be honest, when you say a small school, I think if the village schools round here where there are 30-50 kids in the whole school. That is a small school and for many reasons I would sadly say avoid at all costs.

But 1 form entry isn't really small. It is plenty big enough for variety and for lots to be going on. Big enough for there to be a football team and small enough that you might actually get a chance to play.

I think that 2 form entries can be just as family feeling and have a good atmosphere, but it takes more work. A good head will make all the children feel that they belong and take pride in their school, and no reason why the head shouldn't know everyone. It isn't that hard.
One big advantage of 2 form is if the class dynamics don't work, they can remix the classes between years. This can be really helpful, and a 1 form can get a bit intense if there is an issue with someone in the class.
But on the other hand, my dds school (1 form) felt they needed to remix a class, so they created a 2 classes with year 5/6 mix, which actually worked really well.

Once you get larger than 2 form it gets harder to get that family feel.

in the end, I think the caring etc is really down the the staff, and it can change year on year. Good head, enthusiastic staff, school that attracts teacher applicants, well motivated = great school.

If for some reason some of the above are missing then it gets harder to get that lovely feel, and to get the good joined up care.

if they are new schools, how many year groups will they have when your dc go?

By preference I would not want mine to be the first/oldest year group. I think there is some advantage to having older kids to look up to, to see them achieve things you can do next year etc.
I also don't like the idea of mine being the guinea pigs for a school.

So, I would want there to be at least 2 year groups ahead, and also that those were reasonably full year groups.

There are lots of advantages of larger schools. A simple one is that if there are any difficult friendship dynamics in a one-form entry school you can't make any changes to the classes. Of course you can put in place mitigating programmes, but in some cases mixing the classes up can be really helpful.

There are also more teachers which allows for greater sharing of ideas and skills, and means that you never have a lone newly qualified teacher in a year group - you always have a more experienced teacher as well.

In a small school, there may not be enough children to field, for example, a football team - on the other hand, it could mean that all but four girls get into the girls' football team, leaving the remaining four really upset. T

The other brutal advantage currently is financial. One-form entry schools find any shortfall in pupils particularly hard to deal with from a funding perspective.

My son is in reception at a 2 form school. Pretty much all other schools around us are 3 form and ours is considered small. I picked it for many reasons, but one of them was that it suited my child BECAUSE it was smaller than the others. We've had a great experience so far and my son is thriving, I know I have picked the right environment for him. Of course size wasn't the only or the main factor. One of the 3 form schools near us which was rated Outstanding was so loud and disorganised that my quiet child that flourishes when there is peace and structure would have struggled there. However other parents like it and are happy with it. I would say, pick the school that would suit your child, the one that is well run, parents are supportive and focused on education and one which is diverse enough to provide your child with options in various aspects.

Remember it's a preference, not a choice and the computer does not take your opinions on class size into consideration!

Check the last allocated distances.

If you live in a rural area you may not have a choice of a 2 form or even 1 form entry. As a PP says look at last distance offered. Here nearest school with 2 form entry is 8 miles away and you would have little chance of a KS1 place.