When to start teaching children times tables by rote

[Happysummer]

My DD is year 4 and I was speaking to a friend about how she is learning all her times tables as they need to know up to x12 by the end of year 4. Her DD is at a different school, in Y1, and quite frankly she scoffed and said her daughter is learning them at home now, and any parent who doesn't do this is lazy.

I'm personally not convinced of the merits of rote learning. My DD is quite able in maths and I would have thought having a good grasp of bonds, addition, subtraction, fractions etc is a good foundation before moving on to all the times tables.

I'm curious, is there a benefit to teaching by rote? Would doing so at home be beneficial from year 1? I assume as this isn't a requirement until year 4, you're asking the child to run before they can walk. But I may be wrong!

I can see the benefit of knowing times tables by rote because I personally didn’t learn mine well and it does hinder me (specifically when thinking of common factors for numbers) but not much because I have calculators/computers.

I think it’s mainly good for confidence to be good at mental arithmetic.

I learnt all my tables up to 15, plus squares and cubes. By rote. Bumut that was 2nd year fbawcndary school. Was hugely useful and definitely saved me masses of time and tears. I think it is useful to know them by heart. But you can make it fun - we used to do times table bingo back in th eighties!

I think it is very important that children can recall time tables without relying on calculation methods. Instant recall makes solving problems and mental maths so much easier and quicker. In my opinion it is never too early to learn (without pressure, of course). By year 4 in our school it was expected that they know time tables up to 10 (never did 11 and 12), with most learning in year 2 and 3. In year one most knew 2, 5 and 10.

Some ipad games time tables games are lots of fun, which might help more reluctant learners.

Your DD may miss the compulsory times table test being rolled out for year 4s (voluntary 2019, compulsory 2020), but it is still worth her learning them. Times tables are part of the National Curriculum and your DD should know quite a few already.

My boys both learned them by the end of year 1, it makes absolutely everything they have done since so much easier. 5 mins a day for a year is what it took and they both needed different methods to make it stick. I just found what worked for them.

It was well worth every minute spent, little and often really worked.

I think dd mastered them in year 4, which was the same age i did. Her school considered it important so they did regular tests trying to improve their time once thry knew them. I found it useful myself to know them.

We always did it in the car. Chanting away every morning on the way to school.

I was against learning by rote (which was all that was ever offered at my school in the day), until I saw that my 7yo’s school tie themselves in knots trying to avoid rote learning.

There’s apparently no place for the traditional times-tables in modern schooling, now it’s on some grid chart with its own language attached (they don’t say ‘times’ even). It’s ridiculous and I’m seriously thinking of running my own parallel tutoring with DD. The grid chart prevents them from splitting the task up and dealing with it a manageable bit at a time. Also, they never seem to catch problems early with this method, or be able to give positive reinforcement (cos who knows whether they’re getting it?). Crazily, I can’t help her with 3/4 of her maths homework due to the new methods. Neither can most available maths tutors, her after-school club helpers, grandparents or anyone outside of her maths teacher. How is that a workable system?

Rote may be boring, but at least everyone knows where they’re at.

I was just thinking about the Danny Kaye ‘Inch worm’ song from the old film ‘Hans Christian Anderson’, I might teach her that as a fun starting point. Something tells me Sesame Street did a version, too?

(I’m not in the UK, but hoping my experience still helps?)

DD has weekly times tables tests at the moment. She knows most, but needs to work on x7/x8/x12 still.

I'm not convinced rote by itself is good as it doesn't require any understanding or an ability to problem solve. But I do see knowing basic arithmetic is always advantageous.

I guess it's the starting at age 5 with all times tables I'm surprised about. I'm struggling with 'why'? Does the age at which you learn your times tables make a difference in life? I don't know, just wondering...

Rote learning of them is absolutely fine. It means by secondary school they can just use them as part of a wider question. For example I have able mathematicians in Y7 too set who get stuck on expanding brackets because they can't recall 7x8 and by the time they have worked that out, they have forgotten the rest of the method.

As long as they understand where they have come from, having them learned by rote is a brilliantly useful skill.

Have started my DC at age 5, some it sticks easier than others. But they need instant recall of 7x8=56 (for example) rather than having to work through the lot. Knowing them in and out of order is absolutely key.

The point is, understanding what you are doing, and learning them by rote, should go alongside each other, not be mutually exclusive.
I'm very surprised she's not learning them until Yr4.

Rote learning alongside other methods, imo. It’s extremely useful to recall 6x6 =36 instantly, or whatever sum it is you need, and changing them boringly like we did back in the day embeds that into your brain. Dull but necessary.

They’re supposed to know them all by Yr 4, so we’ve always had the expectation from school that Yr 1-2 is 2, 5, 10; Yr 3 is 3, 4, 6, and Yr 4 the trickier 7/8/9s.

Not doing them at all until Yr 4 sounds odd to me.

In our school they like children to understand what multiplication means first, so for example, lots of practical problems multiplying small numbers which they solve by drawing pictures of biscuits on plates or whatever. Then once they understand the concept they learn tables by rote. I don't think it matters so much in what year they do it so long as they do it

Sorry if I've not made sense, I don't mean my DD hasn't done times tables until Y4. School has been doing them for years from x2 then X5, X10 etc, but it's only Y4 now she is being tested weekly on all up to x12.

My friend is saying all up to x12 she is teaching now at age 5/6. I wondered what the benefit of this is.

Yr1/2 first the 2x, then the 10x, then the 5x.
And get them to learn it 1 x 2 is 2, 2 x 2 is 4 and so on.
Many seem to just learn 2, 4, 6, 8 etc and that doesn't really help when it comes to division.

I remember we all knew our times tables by the end of Y3 - we used to go to the front of the class and the teacher would fire times tables at us. We aimed to get as many correct as we could in a minute and the child with the highest number by the end of term won a little prize. We loved the competition - even the children who struggled to learn them.

Agree with others that learning times tables by rote is really useful ALONGSIDE understanding the workings of maths.

But I see no particular advantage to knowing them all perfectly by Y1/Y2. Just like people who are early readers - doesn’t mean they have an advantage longer term. People learn at different speeds.

My friend is saying all up to x12 she is teaching now at age 5/6. I wondered what the benefit of this is.

Wouldn’t worry. If she’s starting, she’ll still have to go through in order mastering them, so it’ll work out the same in the end, surely?

Yes exactly no squirrel. I'm not sure what the hurry is, as long they are all learnt by Year 4. I seem to be in the minority, but I feel it's just added pressure.

My DD loves maths, I've always bought her the CGP books to do at home and she enjoys it, but I've never made her do it.

This is where we need @noblegiraffe. (Haven’t a clue if I’ve done that right!) She explains it really well.

I’ll give it a go. (I’m a mathematician - well actuary - not a maths teacher so not great at explaining as they don’t let me out much!)

Basically if you don’t know your tables you won’t look at (say) 24 and immediately know that it is divisible by 1,2,3,4,6,8&12. Which makes it a lot harder to know how to factorise (say) x^2 - 11x + 24 = 0.

My two are very able mathematically (whether nature or nurture we will never know.) Dd started doing tables in Year 2 I think and by Year 3 she knew them all. This year (Year 4) - thanks to an amazing invention called “TT rockstars” she has now hit a point where she knows them so instinctively that it is almost like breathing to her.

Ds is in Year 1 and hasn’t done any yet but seems to have picked up quite a lot by osmosis and loves to be “tested” on them. I discovered that saying “oh no darling - you are too little to know what 3*5 is - that is for children in Year 2 or Year 3 to do” will have him screaming “15 mummy - it’s 15!” with great glee!

Haha good point!!

As long as the child is eager and able that sounds perfect.

DS would find no benefit in rote learning beyond 2,5, 10 at this time. He needs to spend time actually understanding current work before trying to memorise the next two years stuff without understanding it.

Entirely depends on your kid.

I'm personally not convinced of the merits of rote learning
I think it's so they can recall them instantly to speed up their maths, rather than having to stop and work each one out.