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Which is more important for summer-borns, age on entry or school?

43 replies

WhereIsBlueRabbit · 07/10/2018 20:17

I'd be really interested to get opinions on this: DS is due to start school in September 2019, days after his fourth birthday. I have serious reservations about whether he will be ready for school then and am considering not starting him until Sep 2020 when he will be 5 (ie CSA). We have a choice of three schools and the decision about the entry point will dictate the school, and vice versa, if you see what I mean....

School A: academy, 2-form entry. Really liked it when we looked last year (in relation to the nursery). Has a very good reputation. But won't accept applications for out of year - if he goes here, he has to start age 4. They have a reputation for being supportive and nurturing. Nearest school - we would probably get a place. Big advantage: we could stick with current childminder for wraparound care.

School B: smaller, one form entry. Not sure if we would get in but good chance. Good reputation. LA school and our LA allows entry at CSA for summer-borns. Would have to change wraparound care and it might mean clubs for three days a week as didn't like the childminder we found who covered it.

School C: 2-form entry. Average reputation. LA school (see above). Would have to change wraparound care, not sure what options are here. Not sure if we would get in but good chance. Some of teaching is done in mixed year groups.

We need to visit schools B and C and find out what their policy is in relation to summer-borns.

Basically, our dilemma is this: do we go for a school we like but start him very young, or delay him entering for a year but potentially have him go to a school which isn't as good? (I should stress that none of the schools in question have a bad reputation - we are lucky that the choice is between good and better.)

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adviceonthepox · 10/10/2018 14:54

@Naty1 not where I am they can't. State nursery is only up to the July before they are due to attend school. In wales we have the foundation phase which is nursery to yr R then key stage 1 which is years 1 and 2, key stage 2 is juniors, key stage 3 is years 7,8 and 9 and key stage 4 is year 10+
All parent have the right to defer to the term after their 5th birthday but they loose the right to attend the state nursery. State nursery here is from the term after their 3rd birthday until the July before they are due to start school.
Summer born children can defer to the September after their birthday but in my LA I don't know of any that have been able to start reception. Many schools only allow children to remain within their age group so they then start in year 1. Missing the foundation phase.

captainproton · 10/10/2018 15:06

Personally I would pick the best school and find out what they do to for summer borns. Do they get more support etc to meet expectations. This will show if they really are a good school or not, if they don't have things in place for the less able whether younger or not it's not a good school IMO. My boy was youngest in his year, by fluke 25% of his class have July or August birthdays and most children are born nearer the end of school year than the start of it. So thankfully he has lots of peers at same maturity level.

anniehm · 10/10/2018 15:13

I'm summer born and missed two terms of school, it didn't do me any harm but my brother really struggled as he only had a few weeks of reception vs a school year. Unless you are trying to keep them back a year for their whole schooling, just send them at 4, if they are already at nursery they will cope fine

WhereIsBlueRabbit · 10/10/2018 17:00

See, that's the thing - he's not at nursery. He does go to a very good childminder for three days per week and also does things like playgroups and classes. We didn't feel he would be ready for school nursery this term, although we may explore that with School A if we decide to start him at 4, in case he could do a term or two there before reception.

OP posts:
WhereIsBlueRabbit · 10/10/2018 17:00

Those stats on August-born boys are quite alarming!

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Naty1 · 10/10/2018 17:42

Ok well England you can stay in nursery till 5. And then go to reception if you have agreement. Or then start later in yr

whoareyou123 · 10/10/2018 18:16

Those stats on August-born boys are quite alarming!

If the expectations were so low that every child met them then they would be meaningless. It's not a surprise that the youngest boys who aren't even 5 when they are 'graded' are more likely to not meet the expectations.

Delaying all summer born would not solve this issue, it would just pass the issue onto the spring Born's.

Wednesdaypig · 10/10/2018 19:14

The only other thing I can think of is to consider the situation if you apply to school B in 2020 and don't get a place then it will be too late for a place in reception in school A as they will only offer you a year 1 place (if they have spaces). I'm assuming here that you can't apply for a reception place and get it held over for a year.

brilliotic · 11/10/2018 11:41

If the expectations were so low that every child met them then they would be meaningless. It's not a surprise that the youngest boys who aren't even 5 when they are 'graded' are more likely to not meet the expectations.

I disagree. The EYFS assessment is not a test to be passed or failed, to distinguish between the clever kids and the not-so-clever ones.

A child that does not meet 'expected' standards is said to not have a 'good level of development'. They are not where they are meant to be, developmentally, at their age. That indicates that there is a problem.

5 months fall between April and August, so 5 out of 12 children are summer-born - and over one in three of these do not meet the expected standards for writing.
Are all these tens of thousands of children 'behind', are they 'not where they ought to be', developmentally?

Or is it perhaps more likely that the majority of these children are exactly where they ought to be, according to their age, but they are being assessed against a standard applicable to older children?

Delaying all summer borns WOULD solve this issue. If you keep the 'expected' standards the same, but only assess children against the standard who have actually reached the age for it, you will have a lot fewer children not meeting the standard simply due to being too young.

Or you could put the standard down to what a normally developing 4.9 year old would be expected to achieve. That means about 95% of 4.9 year olds should achieve that.

Lots of children would obviously be able to achieve a lot more than what 95% of 4.9 year olds could achieve. For instance, most of the kids that are 5.9 at the time of assessment. And I gather that people worry that the more advanced/older children in a year group will be 'held back', 'restricted in their potential', if the teaching and assessment is structured to fit the younger and/or less mature (but still within the range of 'normal' in a statistical sense) children in the year group.

But look at it like this: What is worse:

Letting a September born child make mudpies and run around outside when they could be learning to read, write and add.
(If they want to do 'academic' stuff, the resources are there. When they start being taught in earnest, a year or two later, they will pick it up super quickly. Meanwhile they will have had a lot of fun and unmediated experiences to underpin their later learning.)

or

Making an August born child attempt again and again to do things they are not developmentally ready for, cheating them of the time/opportunity to be making mudpies and running around outside, and then telling them/their parents that they 'don't meet age related expectations' because they can't do the things that older kids can. Teaching the child that school is confusing and difficult, that reading is a chore, and writing hurts and 'is not for me'.

The range between statistically normal for a 5yo vs statistically normal for a 4 yo is huge. Unless you split the year group, you will always be either over-challenging the youngest, or not teaching the oldest as much as they would be capable of learning. I know which option I prefer, as being better for all children. People need to get away from the idea that if a child is capable of learning something (e.g. to read), they must learn that immediately or they are being let down. There is no harm whatsover in delaying the teaching for a year. (Which is not to say a child should be stopped/questions not answered etc). It might even be better, developmentally, for many children, to spend their time as a 5 year old doing different things than reading, writing and maths even when they are capable to do these things.

Naty1 · 11/10/2018 15:12

Completely agree
I think they need to lower the writing expected. Or maybe not include that as part of good level of development.
I personally would look at assessing sept borns on entry. They will possibly be 3 months older than the aug ones doing the assessment. That would be a truer reflection of abilities.
A fairer assessment throughout might encourage schools to support SB kids more.
Some dc cant even speak at 3yo, others only start walking at 2yo. Starting school at 4yo for those really doesnt give them much chance to catch up.

boylovesmeerkats · 13/10/2018 16:17

Brilliotic I'm hoping you're neither a statistician or a teacher, those are scaremongering statistics indeed and you're making a lot of assumptions. Most children meet the GLD, even summer borns and to be realistic statistics you'd have to subtract the children with SEN needs because that's the biggest reason for not meeting the expectations rather than age.

Teachers tend to teach at a fairly slow pace in reception and Y1, I say that as a parent of a summer born who couldn't write his name on starting reception. The expectations aren't for a 5.9 year old but closer to 5.

I've worked with school statistics for years and although summer borns do tend to be lower the difference might be only one or two children. Most children don't struggle, it's not to belittle the ones that do, but you need to recognise that all sorts of external factors impact on children of all ages, emotional, physical and genetic, not just those that depend on maturity.

boylovesmeerkats · 13/10/2018 16:23

As a final factor, psychology is a huge one. If a child has a teacher or a parent that always tells them they'll struggle because of their age then it's more likely to be true. As I say, it's a factor and a balance between recognising that assistance is needed or anticipating that it will.

September children have the opposite, everyone telling them that they should be the best, should find things easy.

Maldives2006 · 13/10/2018 16:33

Where is the research that summer horns tend to be diagnosed with ADHD, my May born child has ADHD (predominantly inattentive type)

HenryInTheTunnel · 13/10/2018 16:33

It needs to depend on the child. I have seen August borns get all A* at a level and September borns really struggle. So to write them off based on statistical evidence, just because a child is summer born is not helpful.

HenryInTheTunnel · 13/10/2018 16:37

@boylovesmeerkats very true. Expectations are key.

Naty1 · 13/10/2018 22:22

I think SB on the EYFS stats is likely May-Aug to make each even with 4m.
This is
Columns reading and writing
By
WB
Spring
Summer born
More than twice as many SB arent meeting the reading compared to WB
(31% vs 15%) or a May onward starts the year with only a 2/3 chance of hitting the reading target (because they are only just 5yo).

But as pp says these are only in blocks so the true diff sep vs aug is larger as this is end oct average vs end jun.
Clearly most of these dc would hit the target by may of yr 1.
The work is thus not targeted at an average Aug born because there is not something wrong with 3/10 + of them but only aroun 15/100 winter borns. Basically all the academic 3rs are significantly affected.
Which is why the gov intend to let all parents choose to let them in at CSA (hopefully), when they get round to it.

I dont say anything in front of dd. As i cant change it now. She is jun and i think one of the top readers in the year. But it does impact possibly concentration/energy levels. Affects confidence.

Which is more important for summer-borns, age on entry or school?
brilliotic · 14/10/2018 14:14

Naty it isn't even. There are 4 months of Autumn born (September-December), 3 months of Spring born (January-March) and 5 months of Summber born (April-August).

The statistics are government statistics from government website.
I did make some assumptions, which I clearly indicated. Namely, that the difference between boys and girls is roughly the same across the ages, so September born boys compared to September born girls is roughly the same as January born boys compared to January born girls etc.
And that the difference by age is roughly linear, i.e. that the difference in attaining ELG is roughly the same between September-born and November born (2 months) as it is between January-born and March-born (2 months) and between April-born and June-born (2 months).

I think that these assumptions are reasonable enough to make, statistically. It won't be exactly true, so that means my results for 'August born boys' are just a ball park conclusion. But this is all based on government data, and all wishing it to be different won't change that. The 'fact' (you can read this out of the table with no need for any assumptions) is that 36% of ALL children (girls and boys) with April to August birthdays do not meet the expectations for writing when the assessments are submitted (around June of reception year I believe).

Naty1 · 14/10/2018 21:35

The notes do say it includes apr in spring.

Though i do agree that is confusing in relation to the summer born campaign, which includes April as being able to get CSA.

Im not sure exactly why that is, probably because kids are csa the term after they are 5 so apr are also csa in sept so they techically dont need to go to yr r. And kids previously used to start depending on birthday to apr ones were only getting one term in yr r. (They also like the other summer months only get 3 terms of preschool funded).

Which is more important for summer-borns, age on entry or school?
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