Waiting lists for Y4

[MuffyDoon]

Hi all
We moved into a new area over the summer and my child is now 1st on the waiting list for our nearest primary school and 6th on the waiting list for the second nearest school. We are currently commuting to her old school which is 30 mins each way whilst we wait for a place.

We have not put her name on other waiting lists as only 3 of the primary schools feed into the closest secondary and we don’t want to risk not getting a place later on.

I read somewhere that Yr 4 classes can go over 30 kids. Does anyone know if this is true please? And whether we should try and appeal on this basis?

Thank you for any words of wisdom!

Yes ( we have 33) and yes ( although you will need some good reasons too!)

Ah thanks! In this situation would the long commute count as a good reason do you think? There isn’t really any other special criteria we would have I think!

Have you actually applied for a school locally? Or just for the ones you wanted? The 30 minutes commute will only be an argument if there is no closer school with places. If there is a school, say, 15 minutes away, but you've decided not to take it because you'd rather hold out for one of the local schools and keep commuting, then you can't use it as an argument.

Appeals normally require you to make a case about the school you want. What does your closest school particularly offer e.g. strong music provision if your child is musical?

D of E guidelines say that up to 45mins is a reasonable time for a child under 11 to travel to school.

they may give a weak case in order to deliberately lose the appeal and gain an extra pupil

I would be surprised if they do so in this case. The budget for the current financial year is already set and won't be affected by any changes in pupil numbers. The budget for the next financial year will be set based on the number on the roll when the census is taken next month (October). It is unlikely the OP's child will be on the roll in time so they would get no funding for her until April 2020.

The 30 minutes commute will only be an argument if there is no closer school with places

I'm afraid it won't be an argument regardless. As eddiemairswife says, the official guidance says that a journey of 45 minutes each way is reasonable for a child of this age.

And whether we should try and appeal on this basis

You cannot appeal simply on the basis that the school can legally take additional pupils. You must show that the disadvantage to your daughter from not being admitted outweighs any disadvantage to the school in having to cope with an additional pupil. You therefore need to look for things this school offers that are missing from your daughter's current school and that are particularly relevant to her.

Thank you so much all. This is incredibly helpful. We have only applied to the schools that are feeders into the Secondary, so there may be a chance that there is a place at one of the other primary schools (which wouldn’t help us in the long run). I will speak to Admissions to see what the wider picture is like. Thanks again for the advice!

it is up to the appeal panel to give weight to the argument on the day

It is. However, if the panel is properly trained they will give it no weight at all unless the OP's child has a mobility problem. Whilst the DfE guidance is not formally binding on appeal panels, most are trained that a journey of up to 45 minutes for a primary school child is not unreasonable and so arguments involving shorter journeys should be ignored in the absence of mobility issues. The OP can bring it up if she wants. She may strike it lucky and get a poorly trained panel or a panel that ignores its training on this matter. But most panels will not give any weight at all to an argument around a 30 minute commute.

It is tricky.
We relocated at the start of year 5. All the local schools were over 30 and she was given a place in our local primary under the fair access protocol. She joined as no 33 in her class so not ideal. Also in our favour was the fact that next nearest school was 4 miles away so it would have cost for transport.

And if anybody is reading this where the panel has done this in your appeal I would complain to the EFA/LGO

You will get absolutely nowhere. The EFA/LGO will not overrule an appeal panel because it has followed official guidance. Not a chance. They will only grant a fresh hearing if the appeal has not complied with the Appeals Code. There is absolutely nothing in the Appeals Code that says the panel cannot use official guidance to help them make their decisions. Referring the panel's decision to judicial review would fail for the same reason. To succed in overturning the decision you would have to show that it was Wednesbury unreasonable. Using official guidance to determine what constitutes a reasonable commute doesn't get close - it isn't unreasonable at all, let alone Wednesbury unreasonable.

Suggesting they are not doing their job properly because they accept DfE guidance on what constitutes a reasonable distance for a child to travel to school is ridiculous. Do you really expect each panel to waste time making its own decision on this? And, indeed, to completely ignore government guidance on other relevant subjects?

The panel will indeed weigh up the prejudice to the child against the prejudice to the school. But part of the training delivered to most appeal panels is that a journey of up to 45 minutes for a primary school child, 75 minutes for a secondary school child, is not unreasonable and does not cause prejudice in the absence of mobility problems. Travel issues only win appeals in very rare cases.

Having been advising people on appeals for over a decade, my advice is always based on the system as it actually works. Yes, some appeal panels go off piste sometimes. There may be some panels that would find a journey of 30 minutes unreasonable in the absence of mobility issues. But I've never come across one in any of the hundreds of appeals across the country in which I have been involved.

You are being totally unrealistic.

The government guidelines are evidence as to what constitutes a reasonable journey where there are no other special factors in play such as mobility issues. They carry a lot of weight with appeal panels. Appeal panels tend to stick to them. If there is evidence that the child will have greater difficulty with the journey than the average child of their age the appeal panel will take that into account and come to a conclusion as to what constitutes a reasonable journey for that child. Absent such evidence the vast majority of panels will use the government's guidance to determine what constitutes an unreasonable journey.