DD moved a set down in maths

[Bonkersblond]

DD10 first day back in year 6 has been moved down a set in maths, now I normally let the teacher do their job, DS went through same school and I have never questioned the sets they have been placed in before, however, background is DD does not find maths easy and was in the bottom set alongside special needs, so we have tutored 1:1 for last 2/3 years and she slowly moved up to middle set, she’s does great work with her tutor, we have worked alongside her previous Y5 & Y4 teachers who both said she was sitting happily in middle set, this is a great place for DD, previous teachers & tutor have been working on her confidence and she in herself has become more confident, that is until first day back this year and new teacher has moved her down a set, she is feeling completely demoralised. Would moving her down be based on Sat test result? The teacher has not seen her Y5 work book as that came home before school hols. New teacher does not know support DD gets outside of school or even knows the work DD is capable of, my worry is she has had a low Sat test result as a result of panicking in tests, and that leads me to another question how do schools support kids who go to pieces in tests?

I’m by no means a pushy parent but feel I am justified in questioning the teachers decision here as at the moment I’m worried of the effect it has already had on DD.

if you are worried at all, then i would either write a message for DD to give to her teacher, addressing your concerns. then if you feel it necessary, you can make an appointment with her to discuss it further.

all the best x

Just be aware that she may have misunderstood. They may have more sets in Year 6 than in Year 5 so she may actually still be in the middle group. There may be more than one group at a similar ability level. The key thing is that your dd makes progress in that group. As it is the first day you don't know yet that she won't. I would reassure her. I would let her teacher know she is worried about it and ask them to keep an eye to check she is in the right place. If you are still worried at half term, raise it again and make an appointment to discuss with the head of maths.

You are at the mercy of the rest of the co-hort

A lot of school practice exam conditions - ask if they do that

Class teacher may have moved her down on the advice of previous teacher. It's not always worth moving a child down towards the end of the year but the old teacher may advise the new teacher that DC may not cope with the demands of the new year.

See how the work goes.

The teacher will not need to see her work book. They would have seen her data, been present at the pupil progress meetings and will have discussed her with previous teacher so they can set her correct work.

There may be more sets this year or just general reorganising.

Due to her confidence levels regarding maths it may be worth talking to the teacher so you can continue to build self esteem.

Your DD (and you) needs to be able to handle going up and down in ability sets, that's just life! Perhaps other kids are now working above her level? Perhaps that will make her work harder?
It's year 6 so your dd will do sats at the end of the year and maybe the school thinks that your dd will benefit from being moved down, she can even get extra help...
New teacher doesn't need to see your dd books, new teacher also doesn't need to know about the support your dd gets outside school, the school knows what's the best for your dd! Did your dd achieved the "expected level" for year 5?

My son was moved down beginning of year 6 . It meant less children per staff and he was actually top of that group , moved back up and didn’t go in at the bottom but it really boosted his confidence

Also bear in mind that the set your child is in is generally dependent on the other children - your DD might have been doing very well, but other children might have been progressing at a quicker rate and have overtaken her.
My DC went to a junior school that didn't set, so I'm not even sure what the difference would be between a middle and bottom set - they still have to follow the same Year 6 curriculum? When you say sets, do you actually mean ability based groups with everyone in the same classroom, or sets across the year groups? If everyone is in the same classroom, even more likely there is scarcely any difference. If you've been working on self confidence then she should realise that she needs to trust in her self - not what's happening around her.

Thanks for all the helpful advice here, @ newusername12345, I have coped very well in the past thanks re both my children moving up and down sets. DD was in line with national average after Y5.

In terms of confidence (all other things such as behaviour within the set being equal and the lower set not just being full of challenging behaviour so learning is impacted) I'd rather be the top end of a lower group than the bottom end of a higher group.

I'm speaking from my own childhood here where I was the bottom end of an exceptionally bright top set (it was a really freak cohort) in maths and as a result, I ended up convinced for years I was shit at maths because of how my perspective on my own ability was skewed by the group I was surrounded by. Took me doing teacher training and being one of the best in the group at maths to realise that actually I was pretty damn good at the subject!

If the Y5 teacher knew about your DD's out-of-school support, they would have passed that on to the Y6 teacher. Obviously all schools are different, but ours has a good handover system and any children who fall out of expected ranges are well-documented. What did the end of year report say about her maths? Did the Y5 teacher suggest anything along the lines that your DD might be falling behind the rest of the middle set?
I think if you're concerned at all, I would speak to the teacher (no need to sound as if you're questioning their judgement, just say that you're worried about DD's confidence etc.) It's unlikely to have been a knee-jerk reaction, tbh, especially if you're generally happy with the school.
I also get that it's really hard for your DD, especially if she'd been feeling positive about her progress. It sounds like there's a lot of SATS pressure already, so she might need lots of reassurance about that.
Personally I don't hold with sets at primary; there's little evidence that sets make any difference (eg www.jstor.org/stable/1170761?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents) and there's some evidence that it has a negative effect on the students in lower-attaining groups (www.teachermagazine.com.au/articles/the-negative-effects-of-ability-grouping), so I wonder why the school uses them. Parental pressure maybe?

Could it be that she is in a skewed class? That the average of the class is higher than the national average? If that's the case it would have nothing to do with her.

National average means nothing if you’re in a school with a load of bright sparks!

Maybe try doing some maths with her yourself, it maybe easier to see how she is doing.

If she needed a tutor to get to middle set she may need a lower staff ratio than the middle set offers and maybe better off in the lower set with additional help. I would raise it with the teacher as its concerning you, at least if you know the reason it helps.

From the background you've given, I think a chat with the teacher would be a good idea. I doubt it's based entirely on a single test though - surely the year 5 teacher will have passed on the data from last term?

There's a lot of current research to show that setting is counter productive. Singapore, who lead the world in maths results, do not set at all. Their children are all taught from the same starting point to get the basics, the more able will move on to application of skills taught independently, middle school the same but with more support and lowers will continue until the basic skill is embedded. Mainly whole class teaching. That's why there's a push on re introducing whole class teaching. Because it works for most learners.

Is this sets like, different rooms with different teachers or ability grouped tables in one class?

Sets are within the classroom. Y5 teacher had no concerns I was aware of last year, if anything it was suggested she would be moving up if her progress carried on, end of year report states how hard she has worked at maths and a great role model for working methodically, she’s a straight A student for effort across all subjects, guess that’s why I was a little surprised at this teachers decision but I’ve taken all advice on board, we have an early parents evening, I’ll voice my concerns then if needs be, thanks for all the helpful advice.

If the sets are within a class of 30 children I think this is a table arrangement and probably flexible. Where I am a governor we used to have 60 children in three groups. However the top group often had 34 in it. The middle group around 16 and the lower group was the remainder but that very much depended on assessment. The placing of children in groups was agonised over and all the Y6 teachers talk to the y5 teachers and together they analyse attainment, confidence and character as well as progress before they made decisions.

I was always disappointed to see the majority of the middle group were girls. We believe their confidence is low, as opposed to not understanding what is being taught, and we encourage these children a great deal so that they believe in themselves and their abilities. They had the advantage of a small group but we were not happy with the near misses - too many were getting just under 100. So we have changed to the top and middle groups being mixed up. They have whole class teaching and then do appropriate work. Lots of effort goes into encouraging the likely near misses. We are keeping an eye on confidence levels. We thought that separating out our middle performers didn’t seem to help. So we looked again at the policy. All cohorts are different but we are getting better progress.

All this stress over which table she sits on then??

She is accessing the whole class teaching, which will be pitched at achieving 100 and also enable the most able to achieve much higher than that. If she finishes her follow up work, she can easily just move onto the next task up. In a mixed ability, whole class set-up there is no reason why she can't access the teaching and learning she needs regardless of which table she sits on.

You are worrying over a total non-issue.

Agree with PP - this isn't really sets (which would be different groups in different rooms with different teachers) - it's just a question of the groupings used to seat children as they will all get the same teaching.

If you do wish to speak to the teacher it should be because the work she is getting is not sufficiently challenging due to the table she is on - which I doubt you can possibly know yet.

As others have said it entirely depends on the other children. Your child could be working at GCSE level already but if most of the other children are working at A Level then she would still be in the lower set.

IME these things are fluid throughout the year and so I wouldn't stress about it.

One thing you could do to boost her confidence, if you can really do it, is have her teach you what she has learned each day. I say if you can because it needs to be entirely led by her, if she has failed to grasp something let it go with a 'thats a bit odd' 'its all changed since my day' type of comment. Only if the error persists have her go over it and see whether a few well judged questions can get her on the right track. Maths is all about working it out, so if you can help her practise working it out, her confidence will build. All the best

Yoi are worrying over a total non-issue

Says someone who's child never came home in tears

My daughter was in year 6 last year and was put down a set in maths when they started. I was surprised as I thought from reports and seeing her work she should have been higher. But they did an initial test and used that to set the maths sets.
Within a couple of weeks my daughter had excelled so much in the lower set she was moved back up to the top set where she stayed all year.
I think without me intervening, my daughter got to show the teachers that she was more than capable at top set maths. Also if she hadn't been, I would rather she hadn't been in that group struggling but would have remained in the middle set working at a level that she was comfortable with. If your child should be in a higher set, the teachers should be able to identify it.