Moving to the UK, concerned about schools

[Einnie]

We currently live in Italy and our daughter is 3.5. My husband is finishing medicine and we’re looking at moving to the UK for the medicine foundation programme and residency.

We don’t yet know where we’re going to be. We’re considering Cambridge, Manchester and Reading. (A lot depends on which foundation programme he’ll get).

Naturally, I’ve got a ton of questions about education and not knowing our destination isn’t helping. My daughter is currently enrolled in a state-funded pre-school here in Italy and speaks only Italian and Hebrew (I’m originally Israeli). I’ve been showing her cartoons in English and trying to teach her phrases as well as arrange play dates with English-speaking friends.

If all goes accordingly, we’re due to move in June 2019. Her birthday is in March, so she’ll be 4.5 when September arrives. I understand that children in this age start primary school? Or will she be too young? I read that there’s an option of late admission to primary schools. But I’m concerned about whether she’ll manage to pick up English before September and if there will be a way to gradually introduce her into the system?

But, in the case that she’s too young, what’re the options for pre-school?

How do I know remotely what constitutes as a good primary school? I’m more concerned about the staff and children being friendly and the general atmosphere than academic achievement (not because it isn’t important to me, but because I think she’ll be alright academically wherever she goes). But how do I find out about these things without visiting the schools? And even if there is a way to fly over and find these things out, what are the things you look for when you do a school visit? What questions should I ask?

She would be due to start Reception (1st year of formal primary school) in September. It is unlikely holding her back a year would be possible or even desirable, this is something negotiated on a case by case basis for late Summer birthdays. Young children pick up language very quickly once immersed and those areas will have a diverse mix of non native English speakers. The bigger issue is that applications for Reception 2019 in state schools would close mid January so you will be immediately looking for a vacancy for September as a late applicant. However there is no point looking at schools , let alone trying to apply until you know where you will be living. Contact the Local Authority education department as soon as you have a confirmed address to start the late application for state schools. If you can afford independent schools you could start your search and secure a place sooner.

Ok, good news and bad news
Good news is that your daughter will be entitled to a free education at a school that will at the very least meet a minimum prescribed standard.
Bad news
You can’t apply for a school until you have a UK address
Schools are over subscribed so you may have a preference about which School but not a free choice
Going to a preschool won’t guarantee you a place in any school, even if it’s in the same building
In some areas free School places fill up fast so you could find a School you like that has places,move close to it and find that by then the place has gone. So it’s best to move to an area that has a few School with free places
If you move in June in the hope that she starts school in September you will have missed the application deadline so you will need to look at an in year application ( which usually fails Ina popular School due to lack of places)
Sorry to be gloomy, most schools here are good but getting a place in one you want can be hard

Thank you both for the answers! How much do the independent schools cost? Here they’re around 3k EUR a year and aren’t necessarily better than the public ones. I’m self employed and happy with my salary, but I’m pretty certain that anything beyond that will be difficult for us, especially considering that junior doctors earn very little.

So, I won’t be able to get the school I want. How about not getting the school I don’t want? If most of the schools are good, then how can I tell which school is bad? I know this should be something that involves common sense but I truly don’t know how to measure a school. They don’t exactly advertise problems such as widespread bullying.

It varies so much
We are in a cheaper part of Yorkshire and our daughters School is around £10000 per year but some schools can be close to that per term!!
There are things called Ofsted reports for each school that will give you some idea about the school but you are right, bullying etc won’t be mentioned. Also, Ofsted looks for specific things so it won’t tell you if the school is right for YOUR child. However, in the absence of anything else they are probably your best bet.
In your shoes I would probably look for where you are going to live first and go from there

Independent fees vary widely but can typically charge around £1.5-2k per term ( ie up to 6k a year) for reception with incremental rises as child progresses and above inflation annual increases. Some will be eligible for Early Years Funding until the child has turned 5 which is offset against fees but this depends on whether the school meets the criteria. If you decide to go to state school probably best to review which has a place available nearer the time. Ofsted is the body responsible for inspecting state schools and reports every few years although do not rely solely on this.

School have EAL staff who can help your child with English

Look in right move at houses and click on the schools part

They will direct you to the school itself and give you the ofstead report

But visit! You will have limited choice if you are in a crowed part of the city

There were many children in my sons primary school when they were both theire, who English was not a first language for them. By the end of reception the children would be fluent in english. They pick it up so quickly, so please do not worry about that.

Are you in a big city? Are there any English language pre-schools near you? Probably cheaper than a private school in UK and they would deliver on the language.

Would you have space for an English speaking au pair? Some students would be happy to come for a few weeks in the holidays and could speak English to your daughter. Do you employ a babysitter at all? Could you find an English to come a couple of times a week

School have EAL staff who can help your child with English

That’s not a given - and I would say increasingly less likely given the budget cuts schools are facing this year.

Cambridge and Reading will be expensive for housing and private schooling, Manchester less so. Just to give a little more detail on private schooling, here is a link to my girls primary school fees in Surrey (very expensive part of the country) figures already given seem to be very low. This is standard for day school in the South East.
www.rydeshill.com/uploads/documents/Fees201819MainSchool.pdf
Add to that expensive school uniform, trips etc etc.
Lovely Catholic Day school, and often full of many Eastern European and Italian families just moved to the UK. Their children all picked up English very, very quickly, it's amazing how flexible children are.

Quite a few then moved to the Catholic state school next door, when a place became available. That is the other way to do it, if you can afford to pay the fees in the first year or two, then transfer to the state sector once you are settled, and know the system a bit better.

Good school guide is one of the reference I used to look at private schools in UK.

The other thing to look at is the type of school you want. I’m in north Manchester and we have a mix of Church of England/Catholic/Jewish schools which have a religious element to them or a secular school (which in reality are not truly secular and still have some religion)

It could be that I was just unlucky, but based on what I saw I personally would not send a child to a state school in the UK, if you have a choice. My dd is about to state reception in Sept 19 as well.

It could be that I was just unlucky, but based on what I saw I personally would not send a child to a state school in the UK, if you have a choice.

Seriously - what exactly did you see that was so awful that you immediately disregard ANY state school in the whole of the UK?
There are good and bad schools in both the state and independent sectors and there can be issues with teaching quality and bullying in both sectors.
State schools are inspected by OFSTED in England and are given ratings from Oustanding, Good to Requires Improvement (which used to mean satisfactory i.e. OK).
There is a different system for monitoring Independent schools.
However some Outstanding schools may have inspections that are more than 5 years old and the marvellous Headteacher they refer to may have left so you need to be careful when you read these reports.

We started off in state schools but moved to private after a couple of years. We pay around £3k/term pre-prep, £4k/term prep, it just goes up as they get older.
Went the eldest started pre-school with no knowledge of english he picked up conversational english pretty quickly, english for academic purposes is another matter and I have read suggested timescales for that can be 2-4 years. Can you move your daughter to an english speaking pre school now?
I would certainly recommend starting off in state and then decide on the state vs private debate. Some private schools are really not that great and you need you visit them all and talk to current and past parents.
State schools are fine especially in the early years provision and if you are an involved parent. We were out of it by Yr2 though.

@catslife
As I said, maybe I just was unlucky. I looked at two local schools only.
Parent population is a bit depressing (stereotypical tattoed / swearing / unemployed). 30+ four year olds per teacher in each class. A teaching assistant with a very very poor command of English (I am not a native speaker myself, and frequently make mistakes, but she was at the level where she had to resort to gestures to explain her thought). School menu featuring a rich and sugary cake / pudding option with every meal. Ridiculous assessment framework for early years - it looks like the children are sorted by "ability" very early on, based on some crazy made up criterion like being able to cut out a triangle shape. Very limited choice of after-school activities. No music lessons.
In addition, majority of my British friends / colleagues whom I consider to be well-educated (in a broad sense), had almost invariably attended private schools.

The overwhelming majority of children in UK attend state schools and some move between independent and state, or vice versa. I fear your experience of such may be somewhat limited to make such a sweeping statement silvercuckoo!

I think you were unlucky silvercuckoo

OP - I live just outside Reading. Like most areas there are good and bad schools - both state and private. Interestingly we're having a bit of a population dip for the next 2-3 years, so pressure on places will not be quite so intense, but this will be relative.

How much time will you have between your husband having his place confirmed and his start date? I have a funny feeling it's no long. I would suggest you make contact with all the possibles and get all the paperwork ready for a late application which you can send as soon as you hear the area you'll be in.

For private schools in the area - again high pressure on places and your looking at £3500-£4000 per term and accommodation costs in Reading are high and getting higher.

Happy to talk you through more details if you come to Reading, eg suggestions for estate agents, areas to look at for housing etc etc

So this opinion is based on a short visit to only 2 schools rather than your child actually attending one and having a bad experience...

1. How can you tell by looking at the parents whether they are unemployed or not? Many parents work flexible hours or shifts where one of them is available for after-school pick-ups.
2. Class sizes for 4 year olds are supposed to be limited to 30 children in a class.
3. Was this teaching assistant employed by the school or a volunteer or on a work placement etc.?
4. School menu - these are usually contracted out but there is usually fresh fruit available as an alternative. The British like cake though. It's usually possible to take your own packed lunch having cooked meals isn't compulsory!
5. The early years assessments are not "made up" by schools but they aren't just based on reading, writing etc. but include physical assessments and skills as well.
6. Most schools have after school clubs but this can vary widely I agree.
7. Depends on what you mean by music lessons. If you mean learning an instrument then parents have to pay extra for this either at school or outside with a private teacher. Even in an independent school you would have to pay extra for these on top of school fees.

As I said, I fully accept that I simply was unlucky, but it certainly did colour my opinion. It absolutely could be that those lovely ladies were part-time neurosurgeons in disguise, and c*t and f*k, used in abundance in front of their own children, were just professional abbreviations used to discuss their recent patients. I don't know about this particular TA's employment status, but would still expect the school to have some suitability requirements even for volunteer positions? And I hang my head in shame that my 4 year old cannot be trusted to choose apples over a "double chocolate gateau".

Now seriously.
Do you really think that 30 very young children / 1 adult is a reasonable ratio? That's about 1 hour / child.

Silver cuckoo, I take it you were looking at a school local to your home, since most people choose a local school for friendship, community, travel reasons etc. I can only assume that you are unfortunately living on the set of a particularly click baity Channel 4 documentary.

Why not move to a nicer BBC sort of area and look at the schools there?

Right. So don't worry too much about the English. I couldn't speak English when I started school at that age. I was fine and got an A in English in my a levels equivalent. Re state or private. Private schools tend to be quite expensive in Britain. About 6k a year to start with increasing year on year. More in some areas You can look in the tatler good schools guide for an overview of the nicest schools both state and in dependant or you can look at ofstead rating but these only cover state schools. If you are going to state educate you will have to play the system a bit to get her into the school of your choice. Generally this would entail for you just moving as close to the school of your choice as possible but it may also be worth looking at jewish/Catholic state schools if either of these categories apply to you as religious schools give preference to children from religious families.

OP. Don't worry about schools ATM because there is nothing you can do until you get here and know where you are living.

When you do know where you are going to be and have an address where you will be living permanently you should contact the Local Education Authority (LEA) , the address will be in the local library or Town Hall or Council Offices, and speak to someone in School Admissions.

If you are in your new home before the middle of February you will be able to make an on time application for a September 2019 place for your daughter , the applications are made online, the School Admissions people will explain the process. You will be able to choose a number of schools locally and place them in the order you want, but be warned, just because you have chosen a school does not mean you will be offered a place, there are strict criteria applied to the admissions which are nothing to do with you coming into the UK btw, they apply to everyone , but certain children are given priority , eg children who are or have been in the care of the local authority, siblings of children already in the school, children living close to the school, for church affiliated schools there are also other criteria.

If there is time try to visit the school, most are happy to show parents around . Read the online government report about the school , you will find them on the OFSTED site, but most of all try to speak to other parents and listen to their opinions.

If you arrive after the middle of February you can still apply but your application will be seen as a late one and will not be considered until on time applications have been allocated. Your child will get a place for
September but it may not be the school you would like.

From the time of your arrival to the time your child starts school she will be entitled to a nursery place, either in a school based nursery or nursery school, if they have places, or in a private nursery using free funding to cover some of the fees.

Reception classes have up to 30 children in each class, usually with both a teacher and a full time classroom assistant. You will not have to provide any materials for use in school but most schools expect your child to wear a uniform.

I think area is important.

We moved and rented near the school we wanted the kids to go to, then moved further out.

Their school was the most important factor in the move.

Last thing you want is to be miles away from 'your nearest' school place because you have to do that journey everyday

Independent fees vary widely but can typically charge around £1.5-2k per term ( ie up to 6k a year) for reception with incremental rises as child progresses and above inflation annual increases.

I don't know about Manchester, but I can tell you right now that independent schools in the south-east/London area are much more than that. You can expect to pay around £4k per term (or £12k per year) for an independent pre-prep (i.e. age 4-7) and for prep (i.e. age 7-11), the fees are over £5k per term.