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Primary education

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Original poster

Another one about school fines

52 replies

schoolgatepolitics1 · 24/08/2018 02:29

I really need some advice as so many confusing threads on this topic. Single parent, took my child out for one day; first day off in 4 years. Didn’t tell school but wrote in on day off to say they will be absent. Have near perfect attendance record. Other families have take notice mulitiple days off and not being fined. Council says they don’t make the decisions who to fine, head teacher does and submits names to them. Guess my question is has this happened to anyone else and why is the school submitting some names to council and not others despite all their absences being unauthorized. Totally prepared to pay the fine but just don’t understand what seems like discriminatory application of the policy.

OP posts:

Are your children’s vaccines up to date?

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maskingtape · 24/08/2018 07:34

It's usually persistent absentees.

Sirzy · 24/08/2018 07:36

Have they only had one days unauthorised absence?

Foxglovesandprimroses · 24/08/2018 07:45

I phoned my council's school attendance team to find out if I was really going to be a risk of receiving a fine for taking my daughter out of school on the last day of term (had received a warning letter from the HT, despite an attendance rate of 99%)

... and they said they only consider issuing fines if there have been 10 unauthorised absences in an academic year!

The HT is obliged to tell the council if there have been any UA.
Maybe policy varies from area to area.

Foxglovesandprimroses · 24/08/2018 07:48

Your child's attendance statistics should be on their summer report. Why not email it to them so they can see the levels of excellent attendance? I would.

meditrina · 24/08/2018 07:48

You are right, the policy should be applied in the same way to everyone.

What is your LEA's policy?

orthepotofbasil · 24/08/2018 08:03

I know it varies between regions, but I'd be stunned if you got fined for one day. In our area it's the same as the poster above, the LA will only consider a fine if you've had 10 unauthorised sessions (though NB that's 10 half day sessions, ie 5 days - not 10 whole days). The school requests the fine, but it's still up to the LA to decide whether or not to levy it.

Norestformrz · 24/08/2018 08:13

I've never heard of anyone fined for a single day's absence but as others have said the rules vary from local authority to authority so check out their website https://www.gov.uk/find-local-council . In my area it is seven days in any twelve week period.

Original poster

schoolgatepolitics1 · 24/08/2018 08:18

Thanks for all your replies. In reply to your questions. I have indeed written to the school stating the attendance record over the last 4 years and yes it was just the one day. I don’t expect to hear back till school begins. The council’s website just states that everyone is fined for every unauthorized absence. Also when I contacted the council trying to appeal my case and stating this was not an habitual thing. I was told the council “cannot favor one parent over another”. It is the headteacher who decides who to fine. I also asked what if I had asked for permission and being refused and I took the day off anyway (which many people have done and not being fined) I was told I would still be fined. Not asking and asking and being refused is meant to be treated the same. Am just trying to think it through as it seems the school is not putting some people up to be fined, does this mean absence numbers are being tampered with for ofsted purposes? Also why was singled out for 1 day??? Just does not make sense

OP posts:

AJPTaylor · 24/08/2018 08:21

Last place we lived it was more than 5 days a term was at risk of being fined.
Need to check here due to dbro getting married in the states the week before end of term

SuburbanRhonda · 24/08/2018 08:23

does this mean absence numbers are being tampered with for ofsted purposes

That’s quite a serious allegation you’re making there.

Original poster

schoolgatepolitics1 · 24/08/2018 08:38

@suburbanRhonda, I know it is a serious one and have thought of this all ways to Sunday trying to understand the rationale. I have confirmations from other people categorically stating they were rejected when they asked to take child away, took the child/ children away and have never been fined. Some have done it same time every year from 3 days to 7 days. For the policy to be fair, it has be applied equally and if it’s not then something isn’t right. Attendance for last 4 years has been 99, 98,97,97.

OP posts:

MagicKeysToAsda · 24/08/2018 09:11

is it possible that other families have circumstances they're not sharing with you? For example, we were permitted to take 3 days this year because DD has (sort of hidden if you don't know her) SN and it allowed us to travel at a quieter time. As it turned out, she coped well and I think would be OK in holiday time next time, but it was a first try! There could be far away family illness, relationship breakdown, is one parent in the forces or emergency services? Or they could be lying and they were actually fined but don't want to admit it...

SuburbanRhonda · 24/08/2018 09:12

OP, no need to @ me - I’m on the thread. I don’t need anymore unwanted emails in my inbox.

I just wouldn’t want anyone to make a fool of themself by flinging around allegations about a school tampering with data unless they had cast-iron evidence that it was happening.

I manage attendance in a primary school - it does sound heavy-handed and our LA would never fine for one day.

Why not give your Education Welfare Officer a call and discuss it with them? Most of them work through the summer holidays.

Nothisispatrick · 24/08/2018 09:19

It is shocking to be fined for one day, how much is the fine? In our LA we fine for 10 consecutive missed sessions, so 5 days.

prh47bridge · 24/08/2018 10:14

The council should have a code of conduct setting out the circumstances in which a parent will be fined. I haven't come across any LAs that allow a fine for a single unauthorised absence where attendance is otherwise good. If your LA does that it is very unusual. However, it is up to the LA to set its policy. Being different from other LAs does not give any basis for challenging their rules.

The head should apply fines consistently. It may be that the other cases were authorised absences or that there is some other circumstance that means they were not eligible to be fined. It is also, of course, possible that they were fined but you don't know about it.

If the head is being inconsistent in applying fines it may be possible to legally challenge any fine but I wouldn't recommend trying - it would be an expensive process with no guarantee that you would win.

how much is the fine

The fine is £60 rising to £120 if it isn't paid within 21 days. This is standard across England & Wales.

Original poster

schoolgatepolitics1 · 24/08/2018 10:21

Didn’t know putting @ in front of a message makes it go into your inbox. Was just highlighting a direct reply. Thanks for your replies

OP posts:

Original poster

schoolgatepolitics1 · 24/08/2018 10:28

You are correct, The fine is £60. The people who have done the same are parents I know quite well and we have laughed about it when they went away and when they didn’t get fined later on we celebrated the fact that they dodged the bullet. This is why I really thought for first time and 1 day off would not be a big deal. As one poster said, it just really feels heavy handed. I am paying the fine as I do feel if you do the crime you need to do the time so to speak but am now more convinced that I should challenge the school on their application of the policy and as to why my case seems very unique.

OP posts:

MilkybarGrownup · 24/08/2018 10:34

@schoolgatepolitics1 don't worry about replying directly to someone. When replying directly to someone on MN it is not bad form to tag them, in fact, it is expected. Perhaps the poster with an issue receiving direct replies from someone they are commenting to could perhaps change their email preferences instead.

As for the real issue here, I'm with you OP. My kids have had maybe 5 days off total between them all in the last 7, 5 and 2 years of school attendance. That's it. Less than 2 days off each in all the years they've been in school. As such I wouldn't think twice about taking them out on one occasion. Especially as I know families who have relatively poor attendance (sometimes illness, sometimes iffy reasons) and they don't get a fine for taking them out for a week's holiday. Speak to the headteacher and ask why they singled you out. Okay it won't get you anywhere but I would let them know they're being a dick (in more polite terms of course)

Original poster

schoolgatepolitics1 · 24/08/2018 10:39

Thanks MilkybarGrownup for “getting” it!!!

OP posts:

FrangipaniBlue · 24/08/2018 11:05

We take DS out for a week every other year to attend a particular event. When I spoke to Head she told me it's not up to the school who gets fined or not, it's the LEA.

I know from previous work experience that all schools under LEAs have to submit attendance data to the LEA.

Our Head told me that LEAs usually base their decision to fine based on:

the child's attendance, obviously they target lower attendance more
how good the school overall attendance is - so if the school overall is above the national target the LEA won't be as bothered, so maybe your schools figures have fallen below the national target since your friends took their children out and your LEA is clamping down?

Original poster

schoolgatepolitics1 · 24/08/2018 11:46

That’s what I thought that it was the council which is who wrote to the Education Welfare Team Manager at the council and wrote back and he clearly stated:
“It is the school that decides a penalty notice should be issued. The Local Authority then processes the notice unless there is a technical reason not to (eg incorrect documentation, child not being of statutory school age). If you had asked permission and not received it, and then taken the time off anyway, penalty notices would indeed have resulted.”

OP posts:

Original poster

schoolgatepolitics1 · 24/08/2018 11:47

why I wrote

OP posts:

orthepotofbasil · 24/08/2018 11:53

It's definitely the school that requests the fine (in this area anyway). However we don't even get told whether a fine has been issued or not.

prh47bridge · 24/08/2018 11:57

It's definitely the school that requests the fine (in this area anyway)

It is always the school that requests the fine wherever you live in England. They are required to comply with the LA's code of practice in doing so. This will set out the circumstances in which a fine should be issued, e.g. the minimum level of absence needed to trigger a fine.

SuburbanRhonda · 24/08/2018 16:07

When replying directly to someone on MN it is not bad form to tag them, in fact, it is expected. Perhaps the poster with an issue receiving direct replies from someone they are commenting to could perhaps change their email preferences instead.

You’re wrong there. If someone’s on a thread already there’s no need to @ them. You do it when you want to alert a poster who isn’t already on the thread.

I’ve seen countless posters ask not to be @-ed on a thread and most people respond in the way the OP has. I’ve never seen anyone suggest a poster change their preferences so that no-one at all can @ them.

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