When do kids typically grasp number sense?

[RoboJesus]

Is it before starting school or because of starting school?

Well my 23 mth old grandson, who is very typical can count 1 and two and knows when he wants “more”. To me that’s rudimentary number skills.

I think if they’ve been shown it would definitely be before school.

Oh Robo, it’s you! Yes, definitely before school. My twins have just started counting at about 20 months, and know all their numbers up to 10. That’s without me taking the time to show them properly so I think other kids should be able to manage easily enough.

If you start number familiarisation at home such as counting, shapes, measuring length and weight, adding and subtracting, comparisons such as larger than and smaller than, you can make a start and bring learning into every day life. I tried to do this before school. They also did this as part of the nursery curriculum.

I think you need to explain more on what you mean by number sense, the ability to recognise the difference between and 2 and 3 and that 3 is larger is a number sense and that will be almost certainly be before the kid is a few months old, if not days.

Sorry I thought number sense was a universal term. Counting is a precursor to number sense but it's the understanding of the concepts behind it. A child with developed number sense could for example be told "I need 5 screws, oh no wait I've already got 1" and be able to pick up 4 screws without thinking about it or counting it out. Similar if a child knows there are 150 children in their year at school and one leave, they know there are 149 children now.

I think it depends entirely on the child.

My 4yo DD is just picking up number sense now.

She could count to 10 before 18 months and to 20 by the time she was 2. She can now count to 100+

3yo DD has only just mastered counting to 10, she can go up to 20 but gets muddled and misses numbers out.

So IME, totally dependent on the child. I think they will even out when they're at school and learning at a consistent level with other children in their age group.

Depends what you mean by number sense. Lots of children can memorise the numbers to 100 and beyond quite young but are just repeating it parrot style. Based on my experience before school most children know their numbers up to 10 and can count out objects. They could add and subtract up to 10 using physical objects and could recognise the numbers written up to 10. Some children could actually confidently use numbers to 100 and beyond including adding and subtraction. They could understand multiplication and division and do it with physical objects but probably haven't learned times tables off by heart. Have a basic grasp of fractions. Some could also do more complicated problems.

Knowing the difference between 149 and 150 is not about number sense, that requires understanding the numeral system we use, not understanding numbers, so it's an entirely different thing. I'm not sure the numeral system is really related to a simple developmental stage as it more actively requires teaching.

The four more example is probably what is known as subsitising and again that developmental phase starts very, very early, but the number you can recognise increases as you age, but 6 or 7 is the limit for most anyway.

Would it be fair to say that you'd expect all the 5 year olds in a reception class to have developed number sense?

Would it be fair to say that you'd expect all the 5 year olds in a reception class to have developed number sense?

Most could work out that if you had 9 gave some away and had 7 left you gave two away. Lots could do the calculation involving 149 and 150 but some would be put off by the large numbers.

No it wouldn't be fair to expect that. I certainly don't think my DDs could have done your latter example by the end of reception.

And actually I'm not totally convinced they could even do the 'pick up 4 without thinking about it' even now as teenagers.

"Would it be fair to say that you'd expect all the 5 year olds in a reception class to have developed number sense?" You could expected but you're going to be disappointed if you do.

What's behind this question? (I could advance search but can't be bothered.) It seems a slightly unusual thing to ask?

Are you worried your child is behind?

I don't understand why people are suggesting it's the opposite now?

Depends on the child, depends on the upbringing frankly.

DS1 had a grasp of things like this in nursery. DS2 is just going into nursery in September and he would struggle with this.

I'm curious to know what's behind the question. If your child is struggling, surely it's a conversation to be having with their teacher.

@RoboJesus, I would say, yes, BUT it depends on the teaching style. Whole books have been devoted to the matter and it boils down to having an understanding of how a all child's mind operates.
Some time ago I saw a video of a 5 yo able to count to 5 figures without trouble. It is not that she was gifted, but she had been instructed in a certain way.
If you like, and very very VERY briefly, children understand quantities (five fingers) from a very early age, then they give that quantity a name ("five") and lastly a symbol (5). Problems ensue when you start from the symbol (5) and work backward towards the quantities. Further confusion is generated by tools like number lines (which even I find it difficult to use) or the early introduction of place value and carry overs.

I’m still not sure what ‘number sense’ is, but I would expect all NT 5 year olds to be able to carry out simple calculations involving numbers less than ten.

Forgot to answer your original question, without a doubt before school (studies have been carried out with infants, let alone preschoolers), certainly not because of school. However what the school often does is confuse you ;)

What is the difference between 'number sense' and 'mental maths' though?

My 13yo just had to weigh out 10oz on our balance scales. She found the 8oz weight, then picked out the 4oz and tried to add that too. She then started looking at larger weights. I had to point out it would need to be smaller. She picked out the 2oz and then counted on her fingers to check it was correct. Is that 'lacking number sense' or just being poor at mental maths, or something else? (She's not hopeless at maths btw, can do algebra etc).

I'm still interested in why you are interested though.

https://mathsnoproblem.com/number-sense/

Thank you Mrz . My DDs definitely have 'poor number sense' according to the description in the link!.

It's not unusual for children to start school able to recite number names in order but not have a sense of the oneness of one or to understand more but not less. There will be children who have to count how many fingers they have on one hand every time they are asked to show five fingers ...

4 year old only just starting to get this. 2 and a half year old already understands. I don't think there is an average age beyond all children get taught this at school so if they haven't figured it out by themselves they will be told at that point.