How able are the kids at your DC's private school? Is DD's class unusual...?

[Balootoyoutoo]

I've namechanged for this post, and I'm just asking out of curiosity, rather than any kind of concern.

My DD is in Year 4 at a non-selective (none are round here), not particularly pushy independent school. She's really happy there.

We've been given the sense that she is doing well academically - not spectacularly, but above average. For instance, in maths, she is on the second table (there are around 7 tables of 4-5 DC, as far as I can tell). She seems to be in the right place there - the work is pitched well for her, and she and the other DC on her table all seem to be about the same level in homework and class tests, etc.

The curiosity comes from some standardised testing results that just came out on her report. Apparently these are from external attainment tests, the results of which are compared against national norms. In maths, DD scored at the 99th centile. I was surprised and really pleased by this, as I really didn't think she was that good. However, what strikes me as strange is that at least 6 or 7 children in her class are as good or better at maths than her and will, presumably, have scored similarly or higher. Is it usual that 7 or 8 kids (out of a year of 30) are operating at around 99th centile? Or is DD just in an extremely able class?

yokatsu that is really sweet of you. I won't let that happen to her. And school are really good at the pastoral stuff - they try reallllly hard to keep the kids from comparing themselves to each other.

Ravenwings yes, it will be interesting to see if she manages to pull it out of the bag again next year...

Non selective private school: self selecting process. Parents earning more, higher level of education themselves, pushy because they are paying, small class sizes. Well behaved children because they will be asked to leave otherwise. Thus not disturbing the class for other children. It stands to reason that there will be more able children in private school and the ones that are just average will also do far better. Its not a reflection of society as a whole though. Obviously in state school you get a huge mix of children from all different backgrounds. The starting point for the children is not the same, and there's lots of different issues to overcome depending on the child and their family. Behaviour is often harder to manage as schools have less options to deal with it, as they can't just ask people to leave.
Its obviously easier to achieve better results in a private school without lots of barriers in the way.

One thing to consider is that lots of independent schools study curriculum content one year ahead of the state system, because they begin studies in the 'nursery' class (or kindie, or whatever your school terms it). So if they're sitting Y4 tests, but have been doing Y5 work all year, you'd expect a reasonable percentage to score highly.
FWIW, we're in an area with highly selective secondary schools, and many children are tutored on top of school, meaning a lot of them score high percentiles on gl type assessments, but it doesn't sound as though that's the case here.
At least you know she's doing well

redandgreen yes - DD says that they have been doing "Year 5 HARD!" maths recently, so they are pushing them ahead. I'm not sure whether/how that would impact on the outcome of this sort of test though. Is it not possible that in testing 'old' Y4 material that they haven't looked at in a while, it could actually depress scores? Or is that not how it works? (I'm not a teacher, as will be clear, but big and to those of you who are - you all deserve medals, in my opinion).

There's a really common misconception that non selective schools don't attract academic kids. My children's prep school suffers from a local mindset that it's not as academic as other preps in the area. Parents are all a bit "shock horror" when children who are incredibly happy, doing well and have heaps of other extra curricular activities do extremely well in assessment tests.

We were caught out. Our eldest DD is youngest in the school year. We knew she was bright but she has never been top of the year. Her NFER scores are consistently off the scale (she gets 100% but then gets extra points due to the age adjustment). We were extremely surprised because she is not tutored and is a very happy go lucky whatever kind of person. It's absolutely not unusual. We ignore attainment scores and reward her for effort. We are lucky that the school rewards the same with only one prize out of many for top of the class. This is why I think non selective schools at this age are so great - you can build a child up with their successes without it being the end all.

PS RedandGreen no tutoring here - there's no way she'd countenance that. And I don't know of any other parents at the school who tutor either (except the odd specialist dyslexia tutor, etc).

zodlebud yes, all of the 'top table' DCs are Autumn born - so is it possible that they will have ended up with slightly lower standardised scores than DD who is Spring, even if they actually raw scored higher..? Does anyone know how much difference the age adjustment really makes...?

Usually a couple of % points. Enough to even the playing field. A one off set of results can be inconclusive though. It's the consistency over time that's more important.

I know it's easy to get carried away (been there, done that), but all it really helps with is a bit of guidance towards next schools. As you say, your child is doing really well and happy at their current school. Both you and they are doing a great job so just carry on doing what you're doing. Don't make a big thing of these scores, probably don't even mention them, but praise their hard work. Great work ethic and a real love of learning will see them go far.

Zodlebud yes, we very much focus on praising effort rather than ability/outcome (I've read Mindset ). I also never give rewards for good reports - I sort of want her to own her own hard work, rather than feeling she is doing it for us, or for some external contingency.

(That makes me sound a bit puritanical... she gets lots of treats for other things!).

Is it STAR maths? If so, most of my son's set scored exceptionally highly in his last test (top set at non-selective independent school).

underneaththeash no, I don't think it is - I think it's GL Progress Test for Maths, but I guess they're all fairly similar.

And school are really good at the pastoral stuff - they try reallllly hard to keep the kids from comparing themselves to each other.

How can they say that when they have put the children at rated tables according to their intelligence?

I think a few of you do not understand how the best primary schools teach maths. Where I am a governor, every year we have a couple of good mathematicians and certainly some very promising ones. We don’t teach a year ahead but we extend breadth a great deal for the most able within the NC. We are lucky to have an excellent maths coordinator and teachers who really can extend the work and understanding the children have in maths. They don’t just do “hard”. The do hardest and Herculean. I would be amazed if these children end up doing worse than your DD who you think is a year ahead. She may not have been tested on any extension Work at all. She may have covered more topics but in less depth.

Overall, you are happy and she’s happy. My DD went to a non selective girls’ prep where countless girls got senior scholarships every year to the best selective senior schools. Non selective means little - reputation means all.

not unusual. my son's private school expects everyone to get over 120 in the standardised scores in year 1-2

laptopdisaster wow that sounds ambitious. Is it a highly selective school? What happens if a child doesn't achieve that level?

My DC are at state primary but in an affluent area. My DD (Y5) got 132 for maths while my DS (Y3) got 140+ for maths. They are both very bright (and we are in an 11+ area so there is perhaps more pressure to achieve at primary). But neither of them is top of their class in maths. I think DS is probably top table while DD is probably second table. I always say that they have done exceptionally well the fact that others are even higher doesn't matter as they are remarkable.

So I agree with the others that it's probably common in private schools for the children to be achieving so well.

On the age related aspect my DD is a spring and it is worth a few points in the standardised scores so you may be slightly behind someone in maths exercises but standardised get a bit higher. My DS is March born so his scores are pretty neutral as his exactly mid year.

I also think for GL over 130 is top 4%. Still excellent but not, I think, as high as 1% (I have a feeling 140 is 1%).

Thanks Ghoul that's interesting - it looks as if it's really not that uncommon in high-achieving schools.

When I looked up the percentiles, 99% was around 133 / 134.

Racecardriver

That story sounds greatly exaggerated (I assume it came from children). I'm sure the boys might have claimed to be drunk I bet you anything they weren't. Lots of people find GCSE maths incredibly easy but no one finishes the exam in 7 minutes. It would take longer than that just to read the questions and copy out the answers. You can look up how well independent schools do compared to state and yes they do better - all the parents will ensure their kids do their homework, do extra reading with their child, probably do some semi educational stuff over the long holidays so they suffer less from the summer slide. The children come from more educated families so are on average more academic. They get smaller class sizes and less spread of ability in their class so they make faster progress when at school. A non-selective indie secondary tends to do only a little worse than a grammar.

Pitter: that hugely depends on the grammar! Around me the selective independents are not as good as the Grammars. All the brightest children are in the Grammars!

BubblesBuddy True - one of the grammars here you basically have to get almost full marks if you're out of area and most of the independents are massively behind in their results. There are definitely a few independents round here which are second choices for kids that don't get into grammars but they still get comparable results (a little worse) than the bog standard grammars (not the super selective one). Other independents can be just as selective as the grammars (they have great sport and music facilities and some parents just want independent regardless so they can attract kids from a huge distance) and their results are obviously just as good if not better than most grammars.

@Balootoyoutoo it's a pre-prep so they are on the cusp of 7+ by the end of year 1. no consequences if it doesn't happen, except a serious chat with the head about possibly adjusting expectations of what schools the child might get into at 7+ and making sure you have a backup option that you would be happy with