Yr 3 Class Size of 38

[standingononeleg]

I've re-joined MN to post this as hoping for some advice. We've been given DS's class allocation for year 3 and he will be in a class of 38 pupils. I was pretty concerned about such a large class size and wrote to the Head to ask how this would be managed, teachers supported etc.

From what I can work out from HT's replies, DS' class will be taught by one teacher and two TAs (one of which is very experienced and has a teaching qualification from abroad). The TAs will be in class in the mornings only and will cover when normal class teacher is out for PPA plus PE/music lessons. There will be no TA in the class in the afternoon. The HT said the experienced TA would be in the class most mornings, but not all.

How worried about this should I be? Can I make a complaint about the class allocation? 38 is well above national average. OTOH, they have slightly more TA support than usual in the mornings though none in the afternoon worries me. Would you be happy with this? And realistically, is there anything much I can do (other than a move, which I'm considering but may not be possible for practical reasons)?

How has it now become 39? Or is that a typo?

bubblesbuddy,
OP has been 38 all along - look in thread title!

One other poster mentioned that their child had been in a class of 39 (+1).

I think it was you who wrote a post that 33 is really not much different than 30 if you have a good teacher (some might agree, some might disagree with that) but that wasn't really relevant to the OP unless you want to argue that 38 is really not much different either.

A junior school I know has always had a PAN of 90 but has never been full recently (the infant schools feeding into it haven't been full either), so has been having year groups of 3 classes of 24/25. The latest intake however they only offered to 66 (as there were not more applicants) and they cannot afford to run three classes of 22 each, so they're running two classes of 33 instead.
Some parents chose this school as they knew they'd get a small class, now they have an extra large class instead.
For the next intake they have reduced their PAN to 60.

I agree that a PAN of 40 is quite risky for a school. If all years are full, they can do some clever mixed-year classes system; but as soon as some years are just one or two under PAN the pressure to save a teacher by making large classes would start to mount. It is very possible that there are around 35 in every year - so for Y3-Y6 that would add up to 140 so you can make 5 mixed-year classes at around 27 kids or 4 single-year classes at around 35. Not sure what is easier on the teacher (more likely to be able to be done perhaps by a mediocre teacher, not just by a 'good' teacher) - a mixed-year class with a little under 30 kids or a single year class with a little over 30 kids.
Or maybe in OP's case, all years 4-6 are actually full with 40 kids each, so they are making 4 mixed year classes of 30 children each (eg class A: 30 Y4, class B: 10 Y4, 20 Y5, class C: 20 Y5, 10 Y6, class D: 30 Y6)
which then leaves Y3 which happens to be not quite full at 38, not enough to split into two classes but really too big for one. Except the school doesn't think so.

But as my example with the PAN90 school that only offered to 66 shows, even a PAN with a multiple of 30 doesn't ensure you don't get extra big classes.

OP another school I know is a 'First School' so YR to Y4 (5 year groups), and has a PAN of 20, so 100 children in total. They divide YR-Y2 up into two classes of 30, leaving 40 Y3 and Y4 kids which is too big for one class but two small for two. So what they do is they split them into two classes of 20 (one Y3, one Y4) for the mornings where they do maths and English mainly, and join them into one big mixed Y3/Y4 class of 40 for the afternoons. This has been running like that for many years and parents have always been very happy - it seems to work well.

It sounds like the proposed set-up for your class of 38 is actually similar, in that they will have as good as two teachers for the mornings and can perhaps split into groups a lot of the time, for the key subjects. So it could work, if they do actually have this TA-that-is-actually-a-teacher most of the time for the mornings, and perhaps have some extra space available somewhere.

Thanks again! Yes, I think one issue is leavers so the classes are not up to 40 in either year.

That's really interesting, brilliotic thank you. I guess this is basically what the plan is, though I'm not sure where any extra space would be found - there's a lot of 'extra' classes compared to what the school was built for. Both my DC have been taught in mobiles for a most of their time there and the hall and library spaces are pretty teeny. It still does mean also the teacher will be solely in charge of 38 children I the afternoons though with no backup/TA support.

That should've read year groups are not at 40 rather than classes, sorry!

This was the norm for KS2 in my dds school, and actually it was fine. Just think, lots of potential social groups, not stuck for friends. Lots of kids working at the same level as you, you don’t feel left behind. And the classroom will probably be run with military organisation.

Few schools can afford 22 in 3 classes if they could take 90 and are 24 children short. The money simply won’t add up. Although many years ago my DD was in a class of 22 with exactly that scenario. It’s not sustainable though.

Schools should be open with parents about numbers and class sizes and their budgets but they never are. They really cannot allow parents to think that small classes are sustainable. They will blame “the cuts” of course but around me, funding has been based on 30 in a class for years! There never has been money for the luxury of small classes as we are, historically, a very lowly funded LA and our awpu has been equally low.

I still think 30-33 makes little difference and nowhere have a I argued that 38 is the same. What I did argue was that the pan needs to be looked at. When they were not full they could have argued for 30. Not now though. They could build where the temp classrooms are with two storey classrooms. This is what everyone else does. It does create issues around dining and hall Soave though. However the Governors need to think about it and make a stand about temp clsssrooms. It’s odd they have them. One assumes 40 wasn’t the number for the original buildings. If they had 30
In a class, surely the children would have fitted in. Is it the 40 pan that’s caused the problems and the need for temp classrooms? It’s a bit of a mess really.

Don’t write to your MP you will get nowhere, book an appointment and try and get some other concerned parents on board.
I would be writing to the local paper and making it known locally and nationally.
38 is horrendous. Your child or anyone’s child trying to learn and excel in such an overcrowded environment is very unhealthy.
Warn your ht that you think it is unacceptable and inform the governors of your plans. Give them a chance to remedy the situation, it sounds like a done deal now, but this situation. Have you had a sudden influx of children?

This situation is unsustainable

No - no sudden influx. As far as I know, it used to be a one class entry school. Then a load of new houses were built which coupled with birth bulges caused a huge shortage of school places, and so DC's school began to admit two classes some years but not every year so about half the school years have two classes and the other half has one class, though no idea of the number in each class. A quick calculation dividing the number in total in the school by the number of classes gives me 31 per class though, so it would seem to be more about the configuration of the classes than overall numbers? Some of the classes in KS1 are mixed year groups.

The mobiles have been there at least 5 years and were old even then - I just assumed mobiles were standard in a lot of places, though obviously not ideal.

I have been somewhat reassured by some of the posters above who've said this has worked OK in their schools as I have no choice but to leave DS there for now.

I've taught a class of 45 on supply once. I have no idea how the teacher coped, they weren't well behaved.

The school must have admtted extra children by agreement whenfirst asked to do so. However, agreeing to a pan of 40 is not very clever. I would be expecting them to look at 45 and making loud noises ot the LA about a new tesching block and extra resources for 45 children per year. The Governors should be a lot more proactive toensure all the children have a good education and the teachers are supported. They are letting the children and their staff down.

I agree that 45 is a far more sensible PAN than 40. A PAN of 40 is always going to bring issues one way or the other.
However I suspect that the PAN of 40 is a realistic assessment of the available space. If you went to 45 you would have the "usual" structure of 2 classes in reception of 22/23, three classes of year 1 and 2 pupils each of 30 and then 6 classes of 30 across years 3 to 6, which needs 10 classrooms.
I suspect the school only has 8 or 9 classrooms presently and therefore needs 1 or 2 new classrooms to go to a PAN of 45. The LA quite possibly when they look at pupil numbers in the surrounding area are saying there are sufficient places for the expected pupil population and therefore would not consider capital investment in two new classrooms.
This leaves the school and more importantly the pupils and teacher with the worst of all situations and I agree with bubblesbunny this is where the governing board need to be more proactive. They need to decide whether the costs of extra staff and resources can be recouped from the extra funding of 5 extra pupils per year group if they could get a couple of mobile classrooms on site and balance that against the much better teaching conditions they will have. But that assumes that they believe that there are sufficient pupils to go to a PAN of 45 in the surrounding area.

I think the op has already said that they have mobile classrooms so that’s why I think the Governors should press for building works and admit 45. The new classrooms could be 2 storey so take up the same footprint as the mobiles but offer more space. The school and the children have been victims of poor planning for the education of children in the area and been far too accommodating but have had nothing but trouble in return. One would imagine the teachers will not be too happy about this and the Governors must consider them. It’s vital that the school start to consider the pan for the future wellbeing of everyone.

My son has just finished year 6 in a class of 36. One Ta in the classroom. He has had a really good year.