Should I take a place on a waiting list

[Ahmawa]

So we are on the waiting list for 3 schools and been offered a place at a new school - opening 2018. Initially we did not get any of our school preferences.

Initial preference was

1. School A
2. School B
3. School C

Offered place at new School X.

We were told that the waiting lists for School B and C were large so I changed them to School D and E with shorter lists but ones we did not initially apply to.

So now it was.

1. School A (outstanding)
2. School D (outstanding)
3. School E (good)

Now School E has said there is a place available but I have to decide quickly. Initially I was set dead against School X - it was a new free school and the first year would be in portacabins and the school would be built in 2019.

I have generally been distrustful of Academies as I personally do not like the way they talk in such commercial terms and business plans. However after researching the head teacher I have found she has a good reputation in her previous school and seems someone who really wants to have the freedom to create a school with a positve image.

So now I am left with the dilemma do I take the place at School E (which was never one of our 3 initial preferences) or stick with the new school X.

School X positives
1.Small class size 20 and only one class in the year

1. two teachers per class
2. Head Teacher really positive and forward thinking - she even got the local tennis club to provide tennis lessons at my suggestion.
3. Free School uniform
4. Planning to visit every child before they start
5. Summer Pack for each child to work on

Negatives

1. No ofsted report and new schools only get inspected in year 3
2. There will be no older year groups - the school will fill up its years over 7 yrs (4-11 age group)
3. No proven teaching plan? I assume they will just use what they have done at their past school.
4. Quite young teachers?

School E positives
1.Good rated school.

1. We know friends who go there. But it seems parents either rate it or dislike it. No middle ground
2. Known teaching plan and experienced teachers.
3. Only an infant school - Reception yrs 1 and 2.

School E negatives

1. Very large, the year intake is 150.

Not sure whether the following are negatives or positives - it has a large pupil premium percentage so has sometimes two teaching assistants plus a teacher in some classes.

So I don't know what to do. Any thoughts and suggestions would be welcome.

If I reject the place what then happens to my other preferences?

Have you visited school E?

I think I would stick with X. You like the head, the head is open to parental suggestions and seems keen to working with parents rather than defensive/guarding her turf. That to me outweighs a lot.

School E, if parents either love or hate it I'd be rather wary. It might be because it is a very common mechanism that when you 'chose' something then you try very hard to like it, to justify that you made the right decision. So whenever something negative happens, you ignore it and focus on the positives. And rave to all your friends how great the school is. Until one day something happens that just tips you over and is too much, and you start 'hating' the school and all of the things you previously ignored become 'I always knew it!'

Also with the size, chances are that if you go with school X and it doesn't work out, there will always be an opportunity to move to school E; with a year size of 150 there will always be people coming and going. Moving the other way may be trickier.

If you reject school E offer, just make it very clear that after consideration of the offer you are choosing to reject it in favour of your current place at school X, but would like to reconfirm that you wish to remain on the waiting lists for schools A and D (and perhaps to go back on list for school B?)

I would agree with the above, especially as school E is only infants anyway so you would be moving in 3 years time. The caveat would be if its a feeder to a juniors you would really like.

I am wondering how School X is financially viable.
I don't think any state school can afford to have only 20 children in a class with 2 teachers, long term!

I wouldn't want my child to be the oldest year group in a new school - particularly one that is so small. I think you may find this claustrophobic once you get past infants (though as there are standalone juniors in the area, perhaps you could suck it and see and move at 7?)

I would love to know how schools X plans to pay for two teachers with a class size of 20. a class size of twenty would barely cover the salary of one experienced teacher and a TA , let alone all the other expenses of running a school.

Have to agree with Redskylastnight that school X is just not possible financially in the longer term. They will have received various grants as start up funding and must be using some of this to pay for the teaching staff. In reality, the break-even point for a class is something like 22-24 pupils in a class with one qualified school teacher.With 2 qualified school teachers and only 20 in the class, they will be running a deficit of something like £35K to £50K per class, with central costs on top of that. If the people starting the school up cannot see this, then I have to question the capability for them to run anything long term. Or are they really employing qualified school teachers?
To me the only alternative is school E but ensure that you stay on the waiting lists for A and D.

I'd take school X and stay on waiting lists for A,B and C/D. A place will come up sooner or later in one of them and in the meantime you'll be getting the benefit of a smaller class size and two teachers.

150 in a year is way too big.

If the two teachers to a class of 20 only works in the first few years due to a start-up grant, then why not go to that school for the first few years, profit from having two teachers in a class of 20, and once things start going downhill because money needs to be saved, make a decision about moving or staying? Perhaps things will gradually adapt to a more standard situation (teacher and TA in class of 25-30) but that wouldn't be any worse than anywhere else. The start-up grant is there, they are using it to pay for an extra teacher, go benefit from that!

Future reception years may not have such a cushy experience in that new school, but that doesn't really affect your choice does it? Unless you have DC2 who'd be wanting to go there too.

Thank you all for some really good points.

School X has been created to be a 420 pupil primary school. There has been a real shortage of primary school places around where we live.

So the council / Dept of Education has given £10m to create a new school - it will be a free school Academy as part of a group of academies.

The school will built over the year with its completion for sept 2019.

The Head of School X has been the head of another nearby primary school. The plan was to have a 60 per year intake and expand the school over 7 yrs until its full.

My concerns were like yours - is this even financially viable? Not to have a full school for 7 yrs but to fill it out year by year.

But the council has already funded another school on similar lines which has just been built this yr for sept 18 start.

Currently there is a head, A Key phase 1 leader , a Primary year teacher. The head of school x was still teaching at her previous school whilst she was head and said she would still try to teach at the new school.

At moment the number of pupils is 16/17 with an expectation of few more - maximum 20/21.

Quite a few LAs operate the system where they fill up year groups over a number of years and there could well be extra funding being provided to aid this gradual increase increase in year groups. Having said that it will not stretch to 2 teachers per class of 20. It is meant to allow for the school to have the infra-structure that it will need when it has 420 pupils.

I would choose School E as the school which actually exists and has a proven record. Pupil premium means they have some funding, although this is likely to gradually drop. It depends on pupils being able to claim Free School Meals within the last 6 years, and the government has cut eligibility.

What does the OFSTED report say they're doing well on? Where do they need to improve? Are management/leadership good or better?

Only an infant school? Is there a linked junior school or where do juniors go?

On the possibility to move, I would think that goes both ways as the school X is being established, but I would hope that School E works.

I would be really sceptical of some of your "positives" re School X - sorry! Two teachers per class of 20, one form entry? Not financially viable. And are those fully qualified experienced teachers, or are they using unqualified staff and simply . I would prefer an established school with proper teachers and support staff including experienced TAs, especially in infants. At my kids' school some TAs are training to qualify, but they're not claimed to be "teachers" unless they are qualified. We do have NQTs but there are arrangements. My DS2 was taught in yr 3 by an NQT in partnership with a senior teacher - when he got bullied the NQT was much better at supporting him through a tricky term and getting him back in there, but maybe she had some particular training or placement experience that helped her, or was just more empathetic.

I'd run a mile from school X as it has a Ht who is open to parent feedback. The HT should know how to run their school. By all means be accessible but to openly say you are open to parents telling you how to do your job makes me think the Ht doesn't know how to do their job.

Want2b, interesting point. I don't know about that, but nothing School X Head is quoted as saying sounds quite convincing to me - I've heard horror stories of people who were better at selling themselves and spending school money in rather dodgy ways than at being a Head. Was she a Headteacher at the previous school or is this a jump up?

She was a head at a previous school and has brought along 2 of her staff- both qualified teachers.

At her previous school she has been there for about 10 years.

Perhaps when I say open to parent feedback I should mention the things I asked about which she implemented was around sports provision using the local tennis club.

Her words were she want the school to be owned and moulded by the parents and kids attending.

Language like that scares me as a parent. I'm a leader in my workplace. I make important decisions that affect the culture of our workplace and it's productivity. I don't want my customers to own my workplace. The leadership team manage the workplace and is owned by the shareholders.

IMO a school is owned by the government (society so to speak) and managed by the leadership team. Parents should not be influencing a school, the leadership team should be. Doesn't mean parents are not important but they shouldn't be mounding a school, the leadership team should be doing that.

I guess what you need is a reasonable balance. Our HT is so defensive that every suggestion, no matter how positive, no matter how carefully worded, and even if they directly asked for it - is perceived as criticism.

It is not so much about how to run the school, but about how my child learns - and I believe children learn best when communication between school and home is open and constructive. When the HT shuts down all communication either by being defensive, or by platitudes (eg 'I will definitely look into that' then never does) then it is the children's learning that suffers.

I guess having this experience the idea of a head that reacts positively to parent suggestions feels like a breath of fresh air - but I appreciate it can go too far into the other direction as well.
E.g. many parents at our school would like regular spelling tests and times tables tests, preferably from YR if you ask some, but the head refuses to put such pressure from parents over research evidence and sticks to her guns, which I am very happy with!

So not a people-pleaser, pushover head - but not an overly defensive, 'my way or the highway' one either, ideally. Education should IMO be a cooperation between parents and school. A head who can react to suggestions in a positive way and feels free to implement something where it makes sense and fits the overall strategy, no matter where the suggestion came from; and can say a firm 'no' when it doesnt.

Update.

School E sent me an email saying I must attend at 9am with my DD and his passport if I want the place - all within 2 days.

I called the LA who said you have 10 days to decide and they shouldn't be sending emails like that.

I emailed School E back and they responded with a sheepish apology.

I have been to see School E and the only interaction I have had is with the admin team and the head and both times they gave the impression they ran the place like a factory and that parents were only there to drop off their kids and pick them up.

So I have decided to go with School X - I know it's an unknown and that I do take on board the reservations highlighted above but I feel I have a contingency as I remain on the waiting list of Schools A & D if it doesnt turn out as expected.

School X is being funded through the Free School Presumption process - funded by the ESFA the the LA to ensure places are created where needed. It will be subsidised under this process until all year groups are admitted. It is viable under this process.