Reassurance needed!! School DS starting in has just been Ofsted-ed..

[RainAndRoses]

Hi all.

So, back in January I had a massive dilemma over which primary school to put as our first choice. (If you want to waste some time you can see the 55 msgs here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/primary/3138659-last-minute-indecision-on-primary-school-app-choosing-between-polar-opposite-schools )

Upshot was, went for the closer, more alternative, less SATs-y school (school B), even though on first look round had liked the local Catholic, very homework-y one on instinct (school A). Having finally made the decision got myself pleased about the choice, got a place confirmed in April, started to meet others with kids going there, DS excited etc etc. All good.

However, in this time the school has had Ofsted in, and I've just (last night) read the report. Has gone from Outstanding in 2014 to Requires Improvement. Many of the fears I had seem to have been confirmed by the report. Feeling quite glum about it all but also annoyed at being so affected by a report (I mean, the school hasn't changed). But, if this had been available at the time we made the decision I almost certainly would have gone for school A.

Reassurance??

JaffaCake, you sure we don’t know each other? I was a governor at a school downgraded to RI. Although it was an awful shock, looking back it was the best thing that happened to us and the school is much better for going through the intensive improvement process (and is Good again). It helped that the HT, staff and governors listened and recognised where we’d gone wrong rather than remaining defensive, I’d be keen to watch the school’s reaction and if they accept the need to change.

I would also say that this just demonstrates what people always say on MN that a school is marked on the day, just because a school got Outstanding it really doesn’t mean it’s always stayed that way.

Ofsted can be about ticking boxes and a ratty lead inspector,don't panic!

The majority of Ofsted reports are accurate. When a parent only knows one school and hasn’t had 25 plus years in teaching, seeing many schools, as Lead Inspectors have, then I do believe Inspectors know more than parents who never see any data about the children’s progress at all! You are never in all the classrooms either. Parents are frequently unaware of how well or badly a school is doing. Ofsted get most of their data before they step inside a school. They know what they are looking for. If a school has had a marked dip in attainment but has similar children year on year, they will want to look at what’s going on in greater detail.

As for your school op, it will change. I would think a new Head will arrive. They and the Governors have to draw up an improvement plan. Good schools share their aims with parents.

Just because a school champions alternative learning strategies, Ofsted won’t give brownie points for this if they don’t lead to excellent progress and results. You mention monitoring. Monitoring of what? It’s vital that the progress of the children is monitored. Just ignoring what is happening in the classroom and not monitoring the quality of learning will always lead to RI. Teachers are judged on their performance over time and must produce evidence of good teaching. Where progress and results are poor, it’s unevitable Ofsted will not be happy. I would expect the school to now rigourously monitor progress and expect quality first teaching, not alternative methods that haven’t produced results.

I would expect changes and hopefully the staff will be happy to improve the teaching where required. If the new Head (assuming this is what happens) can galvanise everyone, including parents, then great improvement is highly likely.

I found every issue I had with the kids old school was fobbed off with "well Ofsted have just given us a good so..." the place was dire (and dd1s cohort have steadily moved to other local schools over this year since I was the first to do so). Might be good but has the warmth and nurturing to it of a housebrick.
For that one Ofsted just fed the heads ego (already at the size of a small planet) and made any issues even less likely to be dealt with - bullying is rife and ignored for example.

Schools get away with an awful lot of results are good. A poor cohort with OFSTED due and it’s RI. The worst, the very worst school I have ever seen was ‘outstanding’. Unhappy children, stressed and anxious staff with massive turnover and aggressive management. But hey, the parents were happy because it was ‘outstanding’. It’s a farce.

The problem with the outstanding category is, that unless there are obvious stats that show it’s not as good as it was, it will not get inspected very often. That didn’t make a previous inspection wrong and the inspection handbook has changed. Some schools may not have been inspected for 7 years so of course things have changed.

Poor cohorts are not really an issue if the children are making progress. It’s not all about attainment and nothing else. In fact it’s mostly about progress. Many schools are very good but don’t have leafy lane credentials. Nor do they have nailed on top drawer Sats, but the children make good progress from their starting points. However modest these might be.

When Ofsted visit they always look at staff stability. What has happened in the years since an Ofsted cannot be picked up by an out of date Ofsted. Parents might be stupid enough to be duped. Many parents don’t know what goes on in schools or whether their children are actually making progress. However, if they don’t get what they want out of a school, the jungle drums start up. No school can haemorrhage staff and parents not worry about it.

Sometimes I think posters have never read up to date info on what inspections do and how they are conducted. Nearly every inspector was a teacher. They know about teaching. Most know a good school when they see it. They don’t swoop into schools with one poor set of results (I am a governor and we did have poor results). We had time to put it right by analysing what was wrong, doing a thorough improvement plan, and carrying it out. Ofsted arrived 3 years later and it’s Good. That’s fair. Half the time RI schools don’t know what’s wrong because their data on progress is useless.

I said poor cohort plus OFSTED due. You were lucky in that you had 3 years to address your issues. I have been a governor of three schools - two primary and one secondary - it happens. Then it skews the intake because people make erroneous assumptions.

Personally, I wouldn't bother much about the different between good/outstanding and all that, but if a school has "needs improvement" it's usually a fairly accurate comment that some things are going wrong.

What, in specific terms, are the problems (both in terms of what you have observed, and in terms of what the OFSTED report has pointed out)? Like--concrete specific points.

Because, while I would certainly try and get my child into the other school ASAP, that might take a while, and thinking in concrete terms about what is lacking at this school will give you some constructive ideas about how to support your child's education and fill in gaps at home while you are waiting.

It seems like OFSTED used to give out a lot of gold stars for "group work" and things like that, and now they have moved away from rewarding specific teaching styles and are looking more at results, curriculum content, and maybe more of an emphasis on "traditional" educational stuff? Just my impression, based on looking at teacher Twitter and so on. If this school is very "nice" for the kids but perhaps not very rigorous about getting them thoroughly grounded in the boring but necessary bits, that could explain why their OFSTED has gone downhill.

Was the feedback you got in person more or less negative than the report then?

It was different - some negative, some positive, and very specific to individual areas/teachers which is something they couldn't put in as much detail in the report. For example, they thought one member of SLT was brilliant and one was not. They criticised how some of the data was presented but not the accuracy of it, that kind of thing.

Generally agree that OFSTED reports are quite reliable, but what matters now is how the school deals with it. You have a year's breathing space if Early Years was good. What were the other categories? WHere has the staff turnover been? Are they communicating with next year's new parents - I'd like to think they'd invite you to parents' meetings they are having about improvements. Do you believe in the head? More importantly, do staff believe in the HT? High staff turnover may indicate not. What were the KS1, Early Years targets and phonics scores like?

You can check out www.gov.uk/school-performance-tables to see how other schools fared. It's really useful and allows you to see if there's been a decline the past few years or whether it's a one off year. Also check the pupil premium progress - to my mind this is a good bellweather for teaching quality, because a lot of PP kids don't have good support at home to make up for teaching deficiencies.

We don't have any Catholic schools near us otherwise we could be neighbours

Thanks all.

Meeting for new parents in Jun, but nothing announced about meetings regarding improvements. I was never 100% about the head (you can see that in my thread in Jan) but I do think the written response was fairly good in a difficult situation. A lot of parents are very positive about the school and its caring environment. Another positive in the Ofsted report is that the kids are eager to learn, and it was independent learning that drew us to it in part in the first place.

Don't have time right now but later I will go over the thread from Jan and pull out the concerns I had then and where they've been 'confirmed' by Ofsted.

When I mentioned above that our school had 3 years to improve, at the time we had a dip in SATS, we had an Ofsted due. They did not come. I truly thought they would. Many schools struggle to turn things around very quickly and schools can be visited when they are on the down cycle! However, what saves a school, is that it has recognised the problems, has drawn up a robust plan to tackle them, is making the improvements and monitoring that they are making a difference. To begin with these improvements are small and some change can take a long time to get going, especially if it involves a lot of teacher CPD and you have staff changes.

Sticking to a certain ethos and style that does not ensure children make good progress is never going to please Ofsted. Not knowing, accurately, whether children are making good progress or not is not going to please them either. Ofsted frequently berate schools for inacurate monitoring of progress and lessons not being suitable for certain groups of children, frequently the brighter ones, because teachers do not know that these children can do more advanced work.

The school will not have drawn up their Improvement Plan yet, OP. They will be starting work on it. I think they may also have the issue as to whether the Head goes or not. Is there confidence in the Head to make the necessary changes or not? If the Head is close to retirement, this might be brought forward. As it will now be difficult to recruit a new Head for September, they may stick with this one until Christmas but recruit next term. The problem with that is that the new Head will not have worked on the Improvement Plan, and will just inherit it. Ditto if they get an interim Head.

I personally, do not think independent learning is a massive bonus in KS1. The children are not skilled learners. You should be looking for guided learning with clear learning objectives. Independent learning means they are, effectively, teaching themelves. It also tends to suggest they are letting the children learn through discovery but not monitoring quality of learning. Eager to learn is very different. It shows that the children come to school like sponges! It is a very positive comment and the school should build on that enthusiasm.

I look forward to any further views when you have put the Ofsted report and your misgivings together!

Evening all.

Right, have been over my original thread and pulled out 'verbatim' the concerns I voiced at the time (before this new report came out). I then pulled out from the report where their findings tie in with my misgivings (adapted/obv not quoted directly).

I have also pulled out the positives I named in the original thread, and in the Ofsted report. (There are more negatives in the report I haven't included here).

--

My concern: whether their lack of emphasis on structure would have a knock-on effect e.g. for secondary.
Ofsted: regular reading not guaranteed, e.g. independent learning sessions lack focus.

My concern: whether if DS did end up having academic aptitudes, if there would be support for that (get the feeling some parents are quite anti- formal education at all, but this may not be accurate!). I think, if DS is academic, he might not feel so supported.
Ofsted: not supporting the more able pupils in all cases. Those working at higher ability decreasing over time in some cases. In some classes, expectations are low.

My concern: I found the head a bit overbearing/didn't agree with everything they said. I didn't quite click with the head (but think would get on ok) whereas lots of parents choose it cos they love them.
Ofsted: impact of wider curriculum offered (seen as positive by leadership) is unclear. Leaders have not recognised where improvements are needed.

My concern: I feel less confident in the maths teaching, I don't think the head is as passionate about that as some other things.
Ofsted: over-emphasis on number skills rather than problem solving. Errors are not corrected.

My concern: boys do 'worse than national avg' in SATs.
Ofsted: results have declined over time. Monitoring of pupil progress is poor. Handwriting is of a low standard in some classes. Teachers at end of Key Stages have to work to help pupils catch up.

My concern: I get the advantages of the creative side and how impressive this is, just not sure it works for all subjects, (eg maths which DS is good at) and don't feel confident they recognise that.. (Head def on the arts side).
Ofsted: monitoring by leaders and governors does not encourage regular feedback/action on findings.

My concern: a friend had a poor experience when looking round. My concern: a possible lack of organisation. My concern: parent-teacher communication. My concern: a lot of uncertainty when the head retires, and when they become an academy. (Not commented on in Ofsted)

My positives: really close, easier to walk. Strong emphasis on developing creativity, and independent learning. Brilliant school kitchen. We already know a fair few families who attend. Maybe being more flexible, depending on whatever direction DS takes. Being up for parent-led contributions. Weekly newsletters and class blogs are nice. High prior achievers do well in SATs.

Ofsted positives: quite glowing about reception year. Safeguarding, wellbeing and behaviour all good. Children eager to learn. Good provision for SEN.

Sorry the school sounds too laid back to me. The Head doesn’t seem particularly bothered if pupils of higher ability are stretched enough or indeed everyone is encouraged to achieve their best. They seem to let things slide quite a bit, e.g bad handwriting not pulled up upon, errors not corrected etc.

Big red flag is the declining number of pupils working at above average level. It is all very well and nice when everyone is happy, but your child’s SAT results determine so much going forward.

The school does not sound good, sorry. I would rather have a longer school journey, but have a peace of mind that my child is taught well. It takes pressure off you to make up of the shortfalls at home and fill up the gaps in their learning. Been there, done that, not worth it. Get thee on the waiting list for the other school pronto before other parents get the same idea. Hope all gets resolved to your satisfaction 💐

My nursery was requires improvement but it spoke well about the care the children received
We stuck with it as lots left so the ratios were great
A year later it is good with elements of outstanding
The council pumped resources into it, the franchise did the same

It really depends on why it got a poor rating but it should turn around

Thanks all.

I think two things are making me hesitate about going on waiting list for other school.

1. OH thinks is disrespectful to the school we have been given a place at, and I see his point. We haven't actually had a bad experience, and if I was a teacher there and people immediately started trying to leave I'd be quite peeved.
2. I wonder if it would mean I threw myself less into helping the school, if I have half an eye on leaving.

Having said that, it could produce the opposite effect, as once on the waiting list I'd feel I'd 'done all I could' and then be able to concentrate on just getting on with making the best of things (which sounds like would be pretty good, for reception!) And I can't shake the feeling that if this had come out before I would have made a different choice.

Interesting point fabulous, haha if others do leave then more attention for those who stay. And overall I do take the point that being giving this jolt could be a great thing, if responded to well. I mean, the fact that Ofsted picked up on lots of things I had reservations about is actually good right, as means they are more likely to be sorted out!

Just to address the above point about children leaving: less children = less money. That means less staff. It is a downward cycle if this happens. Be very careful about what you wish for!

To address your concerns when comparing your first impressions with Ofsted: I think my oracle is working pretty well! In one of my earlier posts I talked about schools not being aware of what was wrong and not doing anything quickly enough to rectify shortcomings. When Ofsted talk about independent learning lacking focus, I am not surprised. Young children need guidance with learning. The school should have monitored whether their creative ethos was actually working in terms of progress the children are making. If it was not working, they should have changed it. It is all very well having a creative curriculum, but if you do not get the basics done to a high standard, you are letting children down and Ofsted will not forgive you for it, however good your art displays are. I feel the Head has driven this ethos and the governors have come along for the ride and questioned very little. Are they the right people to make the changes now required?

It is a big red flag that teachers are having to do catch up work in Y2 and Y6. Also that they did not recognise that they needed to improve handwriting and do something about it. The Y2 and Y6 teachers must be good and have realised the children are not doing well enough. However, Y1, Ys 3, 4 and 5 need attention. Especially Y1 as YR is very good. This is a big challenge so the Head and these teachers need to be up for it. From what you say, the ethos of the school is very much the perogative of the Head. If the Head is near to retirement, this might be a challenge too far and they may go. This could mean an interim Head. That could be good if they are experienced and can hit the ground running.

Leadership of the school is not good enough. That is a standard comment from Ofsted when they have sleepwalked into RI. The Head, almost certainly, has not given the Governors robust information on quality first teaching throughtout the school and clearly they have not had accurate information on the progress the children are making and probably didn't ask for it. Therefore action is lacking. One wonders what targets they set the Head regarding Performance Management? It also makes me wonder what was in their current Improvement (Development) Plan? It will be changed now and so will monitoring of success, or otherwise, and actions arising from this.

Ofsted will not make any comment on whether the school becomes an adademy or not. Is it due to be one? Has this been agreed? The school should be brokering help to improve and it probably does not matter who gives it, but it needs everyone on board to make a difference. Ofsted nearly always find Safeguarding is good. It is an automatic RI if it is not!

I would not be swayed by class blogs and parental help if the teaching, progress and leadership are poor. They are nice to have, but this school needs a good Head and better leadership more than peripheral activities. Given that few parents responded to the Ofsted questionnaire, it has not made many parents feel supportive of the school.

Lastly, things don't change overnight. You have the situation, I think, where the Head has an ethos which has now been questioned. Will the school try and cling onto that or will they want to make changes which address the shortcomings by being more "mainstream" in their approach? Their Improvement plan should clearly state where the focus will be. One thing is certain, they must get some teachers being far more professional in their approach to teaching, assessing the children and ensuring children make the progress they should. This is not an overnight fix. It is also a huge problem that the issues raised by Ofsted (and you) have not been recognised by the Head, so who would trust them to put things right?

I don't know whaat you should do. I think it's a question of trust. However, if the Head goes, you may trust the school more. The Governors will get more training in how to challenge the Head and how to interpret data - although if the data is poor, this is a blunt instrument! They have to trust the Head on quality of teaching. They have to trust the Head that effective training is being given to teachers to help them improve and that the Head monitors the quality of teaching accurately.. I would also hope that external advice gets things moving but I feel this will take more than a year unless they all want to change. I think it wholly depends on who is actually leading the school.

Thanks for taking the time Bubbles.

Agree that there's little certainty at the moment. I wonder if the head will leave.. I sort of don't get that immediate impression but then again someone told me before any of this that they were planning to leave soon anyway.

They are not an academy and no definite plan to become one as far as I know. One of my reasons for hesitating over the other school we were keen on in Jan was that their MAT has been having lots of issues.. so who knows what will happen there.

If the Yr1 teacher isn't totally demotivated by this, and given the tools to improve, then sounds like the rest of KS1 is ok.

A useful perspective outside of this thread has been to 'commit' to reception, since sounds like this will be good, and then will get a MUCH better idea of the situation in the autumn term. Hmm.

It must have been demotivating for YR teacher to see Y1 not being good and the Y2 teacher then having to do catch up. However, with the right leadership, KS1 probably has the capacity to improve fairly quickly. Let’s hope YR and Y2 teachers stay put.

It would be good if the Head made a decision. They should have resigned by now if they were going to. They give a term’s notice so chat could have happened and the Governors have not said anything. I hope there is clarity soon.

Sorry for the essay earlier!

By the way, if you are the “Wonderful Wednesday” school, I think your geographic location may influence laid back parental views! Additionally, from the schools web site, I’m not keen on the level of denial contained in the letter to parents. They do think Ofsted misjudged them and, very oddly, they do not think they can give negative critiques of children’s work to the children. They seem to completely misunderstand the “this is what you need to do to improve” concept. Teachers would not need to be “critical” if the vast majority of pupils were progressing well. They always need to challenge pupils though. Comments would then be encouraging and positive but with good reason!

Hi OP. I found today that the school my DC is starting in September (reception) has gone from Good to RI. In every section. It really doesn’t look good at all, they have a new head and there are apparently some tentative improvements but my heart sank when I read it. I’ve asked to go on the waiting list from another and have emailed the head for more info, but I really did not get good vibes from it at all and have a real wobble about sending him there now.

Hi there - sorry to hear you are in the same predicament! Some good advice I read on another thread is that the reports are measuring the past, not the future but yes.. has (obv) left me feeling a bit wobbly over it too! Are you in touch with any other parents with kids already there or starting there?

I’m not in touch with anyone Red, we’re fairly new to the area and he’s our first at school, plus he attends a different nursery to the one at the school. I rushed to respond to this so I’m going to read the rest of your thread now, I’ve just scanned it

But yeah, there was all sorts I wasn’t happy with, the list went on - it was more than a few niggles, there was criticism of teverything from the teaching, to the subject knowledge, handwriting, everything....

It depends if you believe an Ofsted report is a line in the sand and everything is rosy from that point on. Naive in the extreme, I would say. Schools do into each, but it’s never immediate. They have cohorts of children who haven’t been well taught. What happens if the poor teachers don’t improve? What if they all leave and the school cannot recruit? What if the improvements take 2 years? The future soon becomes the past but it might not look any better!

Well no I didn't mean that, I mean that it is uncertain, and therefore the school could go up, maintain, or go down. But Ofsted can't measure that. I am going to drive myself mad if I try to perfectly guess the future! Have sent you a PM Bubbles :)