Westminster Under admission to the Great School

[User749098562]

Can current WU parents and others in the know please help me with some information?
DS is sitting 7+ and I’m narrowing down the schools we apply to. We have decided not to sit more than 3 exams. I know some parents are applying for up to 6 schools but we don’t want to put him through that.

DS is

• summer born therefore younger than peers
• quirky to quote that overused phrase. would rather be coding a computer than running around playing football
• socially awkward, bless him
• sweet natured, gentle, needs a lot of nurturing
• very academic, exceptional in maths. At his school he and one other boy in the year do completely different work to the rest of the year
• less keen on English. Loves reading but reluctant writer
• traits of dyspraxia but not diagnosed
• not sporty, learning piano but doesn’t seem particularly musical

We plan to sit one “stretch” school plus 1 or 2 realistic ones. We want to choose our target school carefully and focus on that. The stretch school is between St Paul’s or WU. We don’t want to sit both, the exams are usually back to back. Our Head reckons WU is a good fit (any SP parents reading this who reckons he would fit in well at SP please shout!). I’ve heard it said SP is very maths focused whereas WU value maths and English equally - any views on that?

My only reservation with WU is having to sit the 13+ to get into the Great school. SP have no entrance exams as all boys guaranteed entry.

WU parents - how does the process work? Do you have to sit 11+ pretest plus the 13+? Do many boys get declined admission ?

Many thanks

Did you check the leaver destinations? It shows everyone enters the Great School the only exception being a few that go boarding and those are the big names - Eton and a couple of Winchester. What we don't know of course is how many are encouraged to leave before the transfer date!

Someone more knowledgeable will come along shortly with info.

Also think you shouldn't dismiss St Paul's. They really value the mathematicians and I'm sure you'll find many boys like your DS there.

..and St Paul's exams is now in December no January so no longer back to back. I think there was one year when both schools (deliberately??) scheduled exams on the same date. If I was in your position I would sit both.

It sounds like WUS is a better fit for your boy. SPJ is very sporty, and much bigger school. WUS being a smaller shcool, would be more nurturing ( I am not saying SPJ is not nurturing). WUS is very good at taking care of quirky boys.
7+ exams are one month apart, whilst 8+ exam is back to back. So there's no problem to sit both schools.
I wouldn't be too worried about the transfer to greater school. If he does well, he wouldn't have any problem going through. Like wise, if he struggles, as a parent, you wouldn't want him to stay either. And it's same in SPJ, struggling boys will be asked to leave (unofficially).

Thanks so much and yes, the exams one month apart changes things somewhat.
Hhks, that’s my thinking too re: WU likely being a better fit. Are you a parent at WU? Will you have to sit the 11+ pretest in addition to 13+ as a condition for moving up? 13+ possibly not so daunting but to sit 11+ so soon after 7+ seems rather cruel.

User749098562 my ds8 (just 8) sat the 8+ this year for KCS & SPJ. He's his own little person "quirky" I suppose. He loved both schools but SPJ is much closer to us so he'll be starting there in September. His yr3 teacher is an old Pauline & also taught there for a while & has assured me SPJ is a good fit for my tiny, vaguely sporty boy, who would rather play chess. He told me there's a good mix of kids, they all find their place. Hope that helps

The transition to Great School is not as big an issue as many think, or at least doesn't contrast as much with St P's as it appears. They sit preselection in year 6 and have three possible outcomes - a place (vast majority), outright no (not heard of that at year 6 stage) or a watching brief such the school holds a place for them but has another look at them in year 7. In the past 3 years there were in one year about 4 boys on watch list who all cleared, the next year about the same of which 2 did not clear, then next I don't think anyone watch listed. This has been the general pattern - zero to two boys don't get places and this doesn't come as a suprise - schools has been good at identifying them beforehand. Given they are selected in years 2 and 3 this is a pretty good hit rate - it is unlikely that the selection proceedure so far ahead can be perfect. Boys don't leave along the way - there isn't a culture of managing out. From friends with children there, I get the impression that there is much more managing at out at St P's so although the story sounds more like a guaranteed progression there, I suspect that the reverse is true.

Plus, there is talk of abolishing CE between the two anyway (although I don't yet see how this would be entirely practical given scholarship process and in any case, the filter people worry about is preselection, not CE itself - in the 7 years we have been involved at the school I only know of one boy who failed CE and I gather that was a case total lack of preparation).

They are both good schools. Given his sporting prowess I suspect WUS might suit him better.

I'd also note that whilst other prep schools treat the year 6 preselection as an 11+ process with loads of preparation and practice, WUS really doesn't. They get a few VR/NVR papers to practise over half term and that is it. Life goes on educationally.

As a previous poster said, every year 8-10 go to eton, 1-2 to Winchester and the rest to Great School with 0-1 goeing elsewhere (note that quite often the few watchlist boys go to Eton).

On maths vs English, if you are going to chose one topic to be better at for 7+, maths is the one you want pretty much everywhere. Although both is of course best!

I think the "quirky" image of Westminster is exaggerated. Ultimately these schools want a particular type of boy and I should think in the case of SP and WU academic ability is the main priority which may or may not be accompanied by quirkiness or sportiness. In fact if I look at the boys I know who got places at SP they were exceptionally clever, some very quirky and not all interested in sport. Equally there are many boys at Westminster who are sporty jocks and I personally don't know of a quirky child there or joining.

OP, often views on schools expressed on mumsnet are several years out of date so just bear that in mind before you dismiss SP. With the senior school transfer I'm sure SP will expect boys to be keeping up with their studies for transition to the senior school so there isn't a 100% guarantee but removing the formality of sitting pretests plus common entrance surely takes away the pressure? It is also the only school I know that make parents sign a declaration that they will keep their child at the school until 18 so the intent to retain boys is there from day one. Of course the disadvantage is that if you do decide to move your son at 11+ or 13+ there won't be much support to prepare for exams!

@Michaelahpurple Thanks for the insight. we attended a new parents information session this week, and some parents did ask about the 13+ exam. The answer given by the HM seems to be there will still be pretest at 11+ stage, but CE will be cancelled. So I assume it's going to be an unconditional offer at pretest, and then the Challenge boys go on to study for scholarship exams, and the rest just carry on life as usual with no CE pressure?
Well, I quite welcome the change, as I believe the pretest should be enough to tell whether the boy is fit for the great school. CE is really unnecessary, and I'd rather the boys spend their time doing more fun stuff.

Thanks very much for posting. I've been offline for a while.

@Roseredvelvet it's interesting and pleasing to hear you have first hand advice that the quieter less sporty boys can also thrive at SPJ. We will keep options open but at the moment I'm probably more of a mind to go with WU as our first choice - if he gets in!

@Michaelapurple great help to have your knowledge. Are you aware that CE is being scrapped at WU as hhks heard? Only our head teacher who is quite clued up on these things didn't seem to know. He still maintains SP is safer option for parents who do not want to go through the formality of exams for admission to the attached senior school. I understand Kings College also make all boys sit exams, it is only SP that do not.

Yes. It has been mooted for a year and is now happening. It hasn’t been much publicised - most parents of older boys aren’t aware yet. Not clear how high up the school it applies to yet. Not what it means for boys going to eton. But I have to note that most people take the internal summer exams pretty seriously so it won’t be transformatory for people who are actually there - seems bigger to outsiders I suspect.

But for new boys starting next year and onwards is the case.

To some degree bear in mind that if a boy can’t pass the preselection is he unlikely to much enjoy great school so better to know.

All three are great schools. The (small)!majority of boys I know say both W and P - to some degree it can feel like over agonising to try to choose between the two schools until one knows one has the choice. Obviously subject to how many other schools sat, timings, geography and , at the extremes the outlying boys that one might feel wouldn’t fit in one of other - the majority could go to either.

And at the moment exactly half the year sit scholarship - I don’t know if that might change under the new regime.

Think about his commute. The workload is heavy(is) and the great school has Saturday morning school too (I do think think SP does).

Tbh, distance was the deciding factor for us. They are still really little and I wanted ds to have some local friends for ease of playdates, school run etc... They're all great schools and I'm just very thankful we dont have to sit the 11+ again. No Saturday school at SPJ or Kings and also lots of outdoor space like Kings. Hopefully you will have choices, different schools look for different attributes.

Totally second the geography point. Traffic in London is getting worse and worse. If I lived over Wimbledon way or that neck of the woods I would think very very hard before sending a boy over to WUS if I liked Paul’s or King’s.

Trains into Victoria are OK if they aren't on strike!

However, I'd choose something walkable of possible. Remember the bus and tube strikes during exam times?!!

Thanks for clarification on the 13+.
Mmmmm...I am not at all keen on Saturday school. Wouldn’t it be nice if weekends can be family time! Presumably this only starts the year before the common entrance exams? Year 8? Although hopefully this wouldn’t apply to us if it’s being abandoned - all hypothetical, we’re not in yet!
AsAProfessional, just how heavy is the workload? Do they ease them in from Year 3 with light homework and build up? How much time does your boy spend studying in a typical evening?

I agree about the point on distance. Our situation is that we are equi distance to both schools. WU would most likely involve a tube ride whereas SP is a pleasant (ish) drive to the surburbs.

Thanks for the info. Appreciated!
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Saturday school at great school only ie year 9 onwards. In your position I would sit both

The great school starts at y9.

I dont know about the under but upper homework is about a couple of hours a night (and remember thats 6 nights) and in lower 5th (year 9) they do 2 after school clubs (at least - some do 3) so they finish by 5:30-6 (then the inevitable hanging around in their House or with the borders).

It's an amazing school though.

The workload sounds horrendous! When do the boys get to be boys? Do sport or just goof around and enjoy being teenagers?

I think thy workload is par for the course for London day schools. I do worry the same though sometimes.

Long Holidays!

They goof around in the holidays. Or any time, once they're sure the homework will be done on time.

I'd say that the amount they say they set is at the high end for boys schools, but the norm for girls. In practice, it's very common for the amount set not to require the full time - especially with a clever cohort - though sometimes you will get a pig of a one which will seem to take forever.

As an aside: one note of caution is that even in schools which have no formal exam requirement to proceed into the next section of a school, there is no guarantee that every pupil will progress. What happens is that parents will be counselled that they will need to find another school as they do not think the pupil will thrive. This message becomes a little more forceful if parents do not understand the code.

OP

1. You will be hard pushed to find an academic London school that does not expect 2 hours homework a night during the GCSE and A level years. (Though many DC develop great time management skills.)

1. Westminster, unlike the other schools you mention, runs on boarding school lines. Hence the Saturday school. It worked well for us, as DC enjoyed spending time at school with their friends, doing homework, going to the sports hall, rehearsing for stuff etc. If you feel that at 13-18 your DS will prefer to be with his family, it may not be the right choice. The school day is long, but there are two full afternoons of sport plus quite a lot of Abbey etc.

1. Girls make sixth form at Westminster quite different. Our experience was that the arrival of smart, interesting and hard working girls caused the boys to focus and sharpen up their acts, and a great preparation for University and the wider world. But again, some parents prefer single sex all the way through.

1. I don't think I ever hear anyone refer to Westminster as "the Great School", bar the odd former Under School mother. Pupils themselves never did.

1. Dont worry about transition. They would not take pupils on, who they thought would not make it through. And if a child is struggling you probably want them to be somewhere more comfortable. If you analyse SPS entry, I suspect there is the odd pupil who goes elsewhere. There were in our day.

1. Academic London schools have different cultures, and appeal to different families. Our experience was that Westminster was relatively gentle, so perhaps suiting an academic but less confident child. Children themselves will often sense which environment appeals more.

1. Once at Westminster there was no obvious advantage in having been to the Under School to having been at a number of London other very good preps. Indeed one or two might have been better going elsewhere and having the chance to reinvent themselves socially.

All v goood points from Needsmore and v interesting.

The Great School thing is a bit odd - Great and Under are used as terms a lot at WUS but probably not outside - I guess I used them because the whole conversation startes from an Underschool point of view.