Expectations in ‘mixed’ area vs leafy suburbs

[LetItGoToRuin]

DD is very happy in Y2 at our local state primary. She is considered by the school to be very able academically, and is something of an ‘outlier’, particularly in literacy.

A couple of my friends have children in Y2 at different schools in the region, and I’m becoming increasingly aware that the expectations placed on those children are routinely greater than those placed on the children at my daughter’s school. These other schools are in very affluent areas, and the children generally have high achieving parents in senior professional positions.

Some examples:

• Most of the children are reading Harry Potter level or above (in DD’s class only 2 or 3 could do this)

• Spellings are at Y3-4 level at least (DD’s class spellings are Y2 level and they are no challenge to her at all)

• Most of these children are having times tables competitions on all tables up to 12 (DD’s class are doing 2s, 5s and 10s at school, with no times tables homework or suggestions)

• A friend’s DS in one of these schools is a reluctant reader, and the teacher makes specific suggestions when new books (eg Walliams) comes out, and really monitors his home reading (DD is a ‘free reader’ and the school say she’s ‘amazing’ but offer no guidance or encouragement)

DD has started to comment that classmates roll their eyes when she gets full marks in a test, and she seems to receive far too many comments about her being ‘clever’ (from both children and teachers). This makes her feel uncomfortable, and I worry she’s not going to want to keep trying her best for fear of standing out at school. I also worry that continually being told how amazing she is is not going to encourage her to improve.

Is it normal for expectations to be higher in more affluent areas? How wide will the attainment gap be between my DD’s class and those of her friends at these other schools? How much will this affect my bright, but not exceptional, daughter’s education, particularly as it’s a grammar area?

Firstly, are you sure some of this isn't simply the subject of the conversations, how much knowledge do you truly have of the other kids reading ability in the class for example? Is it possibly more related with who you talk to?

Parental expectations are generally much more relevant than school expectations, but some things about your school do sound strange - comment that classmates roll their eyes when she gets full marks in a test suggests that something odd is going on in how tests are presented and reported, or is she bragging about it to her peers and therefore giving them the opportunity to brag?

The teachers giving out comments about being clever is also strange - although obviously kids will know who are the more able kids in the class, it's odd to hear clever bandied about. How do you talk around her abilities to her?

Spellings (our YR2 leafy suburb school don't give them out), I don't even know what a Y3-4 vs Y2 level would be, but it could also be that the other schools you know about differentiate the spellings for the individual kids more.

Times tables similarly it would depend simply on the order and how the school teaches - some may focus on the understanding of multiplication first, others may focus on learning by rote.

I’d say that parental expectation probably accounts for a lot more. I’d encourage her to foster a great attitude to learning (eg rewards at the end of term).

Also, book a meeting with the teacher and ask how they plan to stretch the more able students, and whether they could stream them for certain subjects etc.

Asking friends with children at other schools in the same year is also useful to compare teaching strategies, and you might get good ideas on how to stretch child and embed skills and knowledge at home. Even just googling is useful eg I found this great advice on reading from an outstanding primary school (that unfortunately I’ll never be able to send my child to as we could never afford to buy somewhere in catchment), but I can get most of the books from local library to stretch my own child!

www.bousfieldprimaryschool.co.uk/curriculum/reading

Moved my kids from our local school (and we're a mixed area - with everything from some pretty grim housing estates, through streets of blue-collar tradesmen fucking handy living here if you need a plumber or a sparky in a hurry to a fairly posh estate that at one point had some seriously big Euromillions winners living on it) to a school in a very very solidly middle class area. Wasn't the reason I moved them - our local school was doing numerous things I did not agree with and I had big concerns over the place - just happens that the nearest place with spaces happened to be up the socioeconomic ladder.

Expectation-wise... "rough"er school puts much more on the kids in terms of homework - they have spellings to learn from first week in Y1, and they're currently putting them through the nonsense of mock Y1 phonics tests - it's very much a SATs result factory. We don't get spellings at all sent home - we get fortnightly learning activities to do that tend to require a bit of parental input to do things like research the information for our kids to present into their books.

Reading book wise - the expectation is much higher in Reception at our current school than our previous one - we do get nagged a LOT for daily reading whereas it was 3 times a week at the other school and kids seem to be much further up the book bands than in the previous school - but the previous school only had red band books in the Reception classroom and really resented having to go down the corridor to get some from Y1. There was a lot of lazy teaching and leaving the more able to amuse themselves (and get bullied) that was going on in Reception where we were before - hence the school move really.

DD1's pretty much top in terms of reading ability and on purple band in Y1 - she could probably read higher if I pushed for it but the higher the book, the longer it gets so I'm happy just chilling at manageable length ones at the moment. There's only a couple of readers at her level in her class though. No doubt that cohort will have a few reading Harry Potter in Y2 and DD1 will probably be one of them - change from the fucking Rainbow Fairies would be welcome!

Actually I find our school much lower pressure in terms of cramming facts into heads for tests than the other school although the quality of work and thinking required from DD1 in particular is much higher where we are now and academically she's doing much better. I think that it's more a tale of two Heads than posh school/poor school on that one though - one very much falls into the "if it's promising us a miracle 0.0000000001% increase on SATs results we'll do it" whereas the other still focuses on learning through as much in terms of practicality and play as they can possibly get away with.

DD1 in particular took a lot of shit from peers and some awful parents who really should have been old enough to know better previously though just because she's very articulate and clearly spoken (think a notch or so below those Harper Beckham videos from the other week) and they just didn't like that at her old school - there's less of that intolerance where we moved her to and she's very much just welcomed as who she is there.

In terms of results and league tables they're both much of a muchness - like I say - I just disagree a lot with how one school obtains those results at times.

The traffic and parking is equally awful outside both schools - just the cars are bigger and shinier and more expensive.

Good questions, SirFred.

In terms of knowledge of other children’s reading ability, I certainly don’t know all details of all children, but it’s a single class per year group, and they sat on ability tables until last term. DD notices things like how well people did in tests, what book band they’re on. She’s the only free reader in her class. I know many children do bloom later with their reading though.

It does seem that test results are very public in the class: DD has reported that the teacher announces the top scores to the whole class. DD says people are surprised if she doesn’t get full marks, and she struggles with this expectation. The children are not mean, but they do comment occasionally.

I really don’t think DD is gloating. The Y1 and Y2 teachers have both made a point of saying that she is not at all like that – she is more embarrassed than anything, and is kind to others. She is self-critical: recently she made the same mistake twice and muttered under her breath that she was ‘stupid’, and a classmate reported it to the teacher, whereupon she had the humiliating experience of being made to explain herself in front of the class, and the teacher responded by telling her she’s not stupid but is clever, and getting the whole class to agree! She said she was mortified and wanted to run away.

We don’t tell her she is clever! However, when she complains that the teacher expects more of her, or that her classmates only give negative feedback, we do have to manage this. I have explained that everyone has their cross to bear in life, and if hers is that people have high expectations, she should recognise that she is fortunate if this is all she has to put up with. I’ve asked her to think about how it might feel to find maths really difficult, or writing really painful, or just not to be able to keep up with what the teacher wants you to do. We just remind her that she should always do her best, and to remember that everyone else should also be trying their best, at whatever level, and she should be kind and sensitive to others that may struggle, and should try to tolerate the occasional sly comment. We also have a friend who exceptionally good at maths, and DD knows and appreciates this, so I don’t think she thinks she’s the bee’s knees.

In terms of spelling, there are three spelling groups. The top group in her year have been given words from the Y2 appendix on this list whereas in a friend's ‘leafy suburb’ school they don't set spellings but they have the y3-4 words from the same document attached for reference in their homework book. DD’s teacher hasn't sent any times tables work home at all.

This happened to me and when I went to secondary school it was all really confusing and impacted my confidence.

That said, I have friends whose bright children are being destroyed by anxiety from stupidly high expectations.

Rainbow – interesting to hear your experience. We’re actually happy with DD’s school: it is a very caring enviconment and all of the staff have been there for years (which says a lot in the current climate!) It’s not ‘rough’: it’s a small C of E school in a large conurbation with a wide ethnic and faith mix, and is a tolerant, kind, happy place, if a little old-fashioned. It’s also a 4-minute walk from our house, so is wonderfully convenient.

One thing you said particularly resonated with me:

“the quality of work and thinking required from DD1 in particular is much higher where we are now and academically she's doing much better.”

This is exactly what I suspect our other friends’ children are getting from their leafy suburb schools, but DD is just not going to get this level of learning in her class, and is either going to have to dumb down or stand out. A couple of things have happened recently to make me realise that DD’s teachers and senior management are finding subtle ways to enhance her learning, and I have been impressed with what I’ve been hearing from DD, but I don’t think there’s any way this can match a class full of brighter children with higher parental expectations.

I think my answer is to carry on as before, which is to appreciate the many good things about DD’s school, and continue to enhance her education through extra-curricular activities, experiences and conversations at home, and hope that when it’s time to start thinking about the 11 plus she does not have too high a mountain to climb.

Going back to my original wider question, I’d be interested to hear other’s views on whether leafy suburbs equate to a higher level of work and thinking, and how much difference this really makes in the long run.

You can do alot to bridge the gap yourself through activites, library trips, ensuring she has a like minded peer group outside of school so she feels quite "normal", lots of days out, holidays in nice places.. I would suspect the children in the leafy suburbs schools would be doing all the above & all their home learning is reinforced & extended in school & vice versa so it would be silly to say they are not at an advantage for the 11 plus..

Ours are all going to end up at the same secondary school anyway!

We moved the kids because of lots of things (basically the school was good at getting nice Ofsted inspections but actually bloody shite on the inside!) - one being how DD1 was being picked on and singled out for sneering at by the parents because of how she spoke which of course came down into the kids actively bullying her as the year progressed, and numerous things that broke the trust between us and the school down. Rather than just doing what everyone else in the local area does and stand at street corners complaining about the school every morning... we moved them and in hindsight I don't think the school would have met DD2's needs at all well with how they've developed as the year's gone on either. Moving to a leafy suburb school was not the intentional aim at all - it just happened that this school had spaces in both year groups we needed and it's been fantastic for them both.

We're just in this funny situation where we live in what's classed as some of the high deprivation wards within a very generally affluent borough council (so our "sink" estates are just mildly indented into the ground really) but the next area across is just a lot posher and it was the next nearest school which means we've taken the jump we did. Kids are a bit more well-travelled when you're discussing Geography and stuff but it's not so much from expensive holidays and more the fact we've got a fair few military families in the school!

What I get from your descriptions of the schools, does suggest it's all about parental differences, and of course these parental differences get reflected in the schools because people move to be near schools that meet their ethos. When we moved out of our flat with just a lump to show for it, lots of people with certain views on schooling said we had to move to X area of the borough, rather than Y area because of the schools.

Their assumption was that we would share their view on what you want from a primary school - strong academic push and preperation for the 11+ We moved to the area they advised against - and much more mixed schools including lots of the similar parents who could easily afford and choose to live in the more academic areas who simply don't value the academic focus of the school in quite the same way.

The more parents a school gets saying "please push homework", the more homework that's pushed, the more likely the teachers who don't like pushing homework move to the school down the road etc.

Your school does seem odd though in its focus on tests and public results, DD is in year 2, barely does any tests of any sort, a few familiarisation with SATs, once had a spelling test, but nothing really. So it may well be in that environment your DD who's always "top of the class", may get the wrong encouragements, but then you don't know that in a class where kids are encouraged to fight to be top would be any better for her.

Are you also sure that the class really is lower ability? Or just less pushed / pushed in different directions. DD's non-pushy class has plenty of kids who can and have read harry potter, and plenty of strong maths ability etc. My narrow anecdotal of the kids I know in the area is that the pushier schools also have parents who are more controlling - no reading of Harry Potter beyond book 1 or diary of a wimpy kid until they're 10 etc. Whereas the general lack of academic pushiness gives more freedom of choice, but that is of course simply an anecdote with my natural biases.

Ours is a 'posh' school (upper middle class parents who chose the school due to its great results, mainly).

We never get 'spellings' to learn (apart from a list sent home in the beginning of the year, undifferentiated - i.e. Y3 spelling list in Y3). Zero times tables work in Y2. In Y3 we get an occasional 'thank you for continuing to practise TTs with your child' in the newsletter.

Neighbouring school, much more diverse social intake, worse results. In Y3 they have highly differentiated weekly spelling tests and TTs tests 3x/week. Once they can complete 60 questions on e.g. 2x table in (x) time, they move on to the next. Many kids have turned competitive about TTs (and spellings) and zoomed through them to now know all up to 12x12. Friend's kid has been stuck trying and failing to do 2x table since September. School seems to have zero insight that perhaps their method does not work for everyone.

I don't think either school is a particularly warm or happy place, or has particularly good pastoral care.

The differences in results most likely stem from different parental engagement and expectations, rather from anything the school does. If anything, the more diverse school seems to be pushier and have higher expectations, whereas the posher school can afford to lean back, and relies on parents who will seek external tutoring if their child's results aren't right.

The differences in style (e.g. relaxed 'practise TTs if you have an opportunity' vs. pressurised TT tests 3x/week) are a question of headteacher character, not 'poshness'. In either school, it will be parental engagement that will make the difference to results.

OP I think you're on to a winner with your school - it is a warm and happy place. That (and your engagement with your child's education) will make more positive difference to your child than the abilities of the cohort they are with, or the expectations the school has/doesn't have.

We have equivalent schools round here.
The leafy suburbs school pretty much forces out any DC that doesn't conform (e.g. because of SEN). The DC are all tutored to death to "keep up". I'd take marginally worse (if they are marginally worse) results and a happy environment myself.

(of course this may not be true of OP's alternative school; just highlighting the flip side)

• have to say I thought schools were only meant to teach year based curriculum these days? So not sure why the other school is going on to Y3/4 work?