Appeal advice please: Sibling out of catchment (300m away) but 1st born in Year 1

[Playdohonmysocks]

Hello,

I'm driving myself mad with the amount of research I'm doing and taking on board the advice I'm being giving (more than when I had a newborn and that's saying something!)

With regards to us being out of catchment:

We live 300m away from our closest school and I can get to the school gate in a 1 minute walk. It's one of the best in the area and has notoriously been oversubscribed. We are the first house on the road from the official catchment. Our catchment school is approximately a 20 minute walk away and there is another very good school approximately a 15 minute walk away.

In 2016 our 1st born got a place at our closest school. The catchment area had been decreased massively due to it's previous over subscription and we and approximately 8 others out of catchment got into a class of 30.

Those out of catchment with siblings were advised that due to the catchment area being shrunk so much it was highly likely the siblings would get a place. So many of us accepted.

We accepted due to a number of reasons including it was our first child, we really didn't fully understand the long-term ramifications of our decision and we'd have been daft (hindsight hey?) to not accept the school a 1 minute walk away instead of dragging a 4/5 year old on a 20 minute walk.

Since the catchment shrinkage, the last 3 years has seen all catchment children get a place, all siblings (in or out) and everything has been hunky-dory.

This year something has massively changed - and our 2nd child hasn't been offered a place. Neither have 10 catchment children or a further 2 siblings out of catchment.

The school our 2nd child has been offered isn't catchment but the 15 minute walk away. It's a great school, obviously not our first choice, so I enquired if our 1st born could move there and it's a no. Class is full - in all honesty I would rather not do that anyway as fully settled and we all adore the school.

I'm holding out for the waiting list following the refusal ... but I'm guessing we'll be at number 11 due to out of catchment but living the closest out of the siblings.

Unless they all go private and offered children turn down their place ... I know what I'm up against.

There's 2 years between my same sex siblings and although yes I have no idea how I'd split myself in 2, get 2 children to school on time, embrace 2 schools fully, or fund required childcare etc ... I'm not alone and it's not grounds for an appeal.

But if I don't try to appeal for my children so close in age to go to the closest school to our house for the majority of both their primary school life ... I couldn't say I'd given it my best shot.

I'm going to put both on each others waiting list and I've accepted the place so at least I'm not cutting my nose off ...

Emotionally they are inseparable - yes they fight like cat and dog but nothing or no-one would separate them as they're thick as thieves.

My youngest is at the school gates every morning and every evening - thinking that's the 'big school' they're heading for in September.

Eldest cannot wait to have a sibling at school just like all the others - it sounds a bit 'Walton's' - but all siblings come together in groups and all play together at breaks and lunchtime. The majority of playdates etc are with siblings ... it's a close-knit school and I'm just struggling to face that my 2nd may not be a part of this.

I'm not stupid and I know a successful appeal is unlikely, but I also know that sometimes they are granted on the emotional impact on siblings ... therefore is there anyone out there that has any positive stories and top-tips with what to focus on within my appeal? I've written loads but the next day I doubt every point I've made!

Can I use distance? And close sibling attachment?

Thanks in advance for any help!

Thanks PatriciaHolm - I was just trying to work out if the stats would back up my case that after the catchment was shrunk a few years ago it was highly likely siblings would get in as catchment children were now catered for by offer day.

But this year proves not.

I'm trying all angles ...

Re Waiting lists ...

Are they set in stone with regards to the admissions policy - so no matter what catchment will be over sibling out of catchment?

Yep ... I'm grasping at anything at the moment!

Yes, waiting lists, if operated, must be run according to the admissions criteria. Waiting lists must be held until at least the December of the year of admission, but most schools carry them on, though you may need to reconfirm you wish to stay on them.

@prh47bridge @admission @PatriciaHolm

Just wondering if any of the past stats I've posted can help my appeal in any way?

I know current reception is at 29, Year 1 31 and Year 2 31 (both due to exceptional circumstances)

Also, any tips on what questions the appeals panel will ask me will be gratefully appreciated.

I've found out the LA made admissions errors in 2016 by admitting out of catchment children over catchment, but one mum said there's no way they'd admit it and that they were informed they'd 'got their numbers wrong on SEN children' and gave said child a place straight away. The class was still at 30 ... do schools ever hold back places?

The LA have told me this years 20 x in catchment siblings are certainly all in catchment ... I'm not so sure but have absolutely no way of proving it either way.

Thanks in advance

Previous appeal stats are not relevant. The panel would not be interested.

Schools are not permitted to hold back places.

The appeal panel will ask questions to test the strength of your case. It is impossible to predict exactly what they will ask. But expect to be asked to clarify anything they don't understand and expect them to push on any apparent weaknesses in your case.

Ok thanks @prh47bridge

Thanks for the update and I will make sure I'm ready.

This isn't very me by the way ... I usually accept what I'm told but I just can't not try and win an appeal!

Can I also ask what Grant ISC1 and Grant ISC2 mean?

And what does it mean when a child is 'named school'?

Thanks again

Can you give some context to those? What do they say?

Grant ISC1 and ISC2 don't immediately mean anything to me.

"named school" sounds like it refers to children with an EHCP. The EHCP will name a school which must then admit the child even if it is already full.

Hi @prh47bridge

Apologies - they're actually Grant ICS1 and Grant ICS2 on the table of outcomes for past appeals.

The list is:

Grant Stage 1
Grant Stage 2
Grant ICS 1
Grant ICS2
Refused
Withdrawn
Refused ICSP
Deferred

And there have been two of those grants in the last couple of years ... indicating parents have been successful with ICSP appeals ... is that correct?

I'm hoping so!

Ah, I see. Grant (i.e. appeal successful) Infant Class Size stage 1 and stage 2. If there have been successful ICS appeals in the last couple of years there have presumably been errors that meant people didn't get places to which they were entitled. If they've made a mistake again that gives you a good chance of success.

thanks @prh47bridge - please can I ask what the stage 1 and stage 2 refer to?

I do think they've made quite a few mistakes over the years ... but I'm guessing the catchment families are still above me and it depends on whether they choose to appeal or not.

Once all appeals have been lodged, are the LA allowed to reveal how many appeals are being made for the Reception place I'm appealing?

Just so I know how many I'm up against prior to even meeting the panel ...

It relates to the decision making process followed by the appeal panel. The first stage is about whether or not there will be any prejudice to the school from admitting additional pupils and also whether admissions have been administered correctly. If the panel decide there is no prejudice or that the child has missed out due to an error they can decide to allow the appeal at this point. If not, they go on to stage 2 which is where they look at the prejudice to the child through not being admitted.

Sometimes the hearing is held as two separate stages with all appellants present for stage 1 followed by individual hearings for stage 2. If there is only a single hearing that will cover both stage 1 and stage 2.

Thanks @prh47bridge - I think I understand ... apologies if I'm on here quite a lot before June/July!

Hi, we are in a similar situation at the moment. Our second daughter has not been allocated a place at her older sisters school, her older sister is in reception.
Our situation is slightly different, the school have taken in 18 pupils for reception and there are currently 9 siblings not allocated a place. We live closer than most of the catchment first borns who were allocated a place.
We were promised in writing from the school when our eldest started that all siblings would be kept together, but we find ourselves at appeal.
It's crushing to think of how the younger siblings will cope with the rejection. They wont understand the system they will just see that big sister is there and I'm not allowed in. :(

Hopeful88

What are the over-subscription criteria for the school?

Are you in catchment?

Does it go (after LAC, and children with EHCP naming the school)

• Catchment siblings
• Other catchment
• Other siblings
• Other

(distance as tiebreaker within each criterion)?

Why did the school write to say that siblings were kept together? Did the oversubscription criteria change?

Also, 18 is a very odd PAN. How big are the classes? As no Reception / KS1 class can have more than 30, how do they divide up the 18 per year to give classes of 30?

if the classes are NOT 30 (I can see that 18 would possibly lead to classes of 27, R/ half Y1; half Y1 / Y2) then you have much more chance of winning an appeal as it won't be heard under Infant Class Size regulations.

The classes are mixed from Y1. They mix Y1 and 2, Y2 and 3, Y3 and 4 then Y5 and 6.
They have about 25 ish in each mixed class.

We are not in catchment, however we live closer than the majority of catchment.
Criteria goes;
Looked after and SEN
Catchment siblings
Catchment
Out of catchment siblings

They have gone over PAN in the past to place siblings, this is the first year that siblings have not been allocated a place.
When they went over PAN before they wrote to say that they had gone over PAN as they always keep siblings together.

It sounds like this will not be an infant class size case. You can't argue that a mistake has been made unfortunately. The fact that you live closer than some of the in-catchment children who have been admitted is irrelevant. They have followed their admission criteria correctly. However, if you have in writing a statement that siblings will be kept together you can argue that you were given a reasonable expectation that your daughter would be given a place. You should also look at what this school offers that is missing from the allocated school and is particularly relevant to your daughter. You can use that to show that your daughter will be disadvantaged if she does not go to this school.

Simply wanting to be at the same school as her sister isn't generally considered a terribly strong case unless there is professional evidence that your daughter has a stronger need than other children to be with her sister. Transport and childcare issues from having them at different schools are not taken into account. Build your case around the broken promise and any features of this school that make it particularly relevant to your daughter.

That's a great help, thank you. The statement written by them says; "As a church school it is paramount that our values are recognised and this means that all families are kept together". This was a statement with regards to admissions and going over PAN to place siblings. In previous years every sibling has been allocated a place.

The statement was written last year.

I'm not sure if this is relevant but as a Church school they have chosen their own catchment area, no other schools in our area have a catchment so the boundary lines don't join up to each other like that.

Their catchment area covers all of two wealthy villages and 2 wealthy streets from our village (our village is significantly less wealthy than the other villages bar the streets included). Are they allowed to choose their catchment in this way?

Is catchment the parish lines by any chance?

No, it's not Parish lines.

Is it C of E?

Yes.