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8 year old and times tables

9 replies

upsideup · 30/03/2018 22:06

DS(8) knows his times tables off by heart, he can chant through to 12x12 easily and completes all homework and worksheets with no mistakes. But he really doesnt understand multiplication at all, he can do it because he goes through the rhyme so if I ask him 9x7 he will work him out by counting on his finger 9,18,27,36,45,54,63 but he has no idea what 9x7 actually means.

As there are kids who are still struggeling with learning their times tables and ds is able to complete any times tables actvities without any help this has gone mostly unnoticed at school. It seems simple enough for me to be able to teach him the basis of multiplication at home, I have tried using sweets but he just doesnt get it. I think the main problem is he seems unbothered in understanding why as if thinks he knows the short cut and he gets every question right so hes fine.

Any advice on how I can get him to get it?

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sproutsandparsnips · 30/03/2018 22:26

Two things. It's fabulous he knows his times tables - you should be pleased I would think. Also counting upwards in 9s surely shows he knows what it means. Or am I missing something?

sirfredfredgeorge · 30/03/2018 22:30

We did recently have a long discussion on if understanding before learning was relevant:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/primary/3194856-Times-Table-new-government-testing
The majority of teachers, and indeed others, felt that understanding could and often did come later, and learning them before was fine and still a good positive.

Iwillorderthefood · 30/03/2018 22:30

You could introduce their meaning in general conversation. Show how times tables can help with every day Maths, Sharing things out and also working out how many potatoes should be cooked if everyone has 3 for example. Make sure to also show the link between tables an fractions.

I speak as someone who absolutely had no idea that I could work out fractions of numbers using tables.

You can also show it through telling the time.

Good luck hope it all works.

Backingvocals · 30/03/2018 22:35

DS does this. He prefers to recalculate each time. He’s good at maths.

I take it as a sign he does know what the operation means. Since your DS knows the tables and knows how to recalculate it what makes you think he doesn’t understand it.

brilliotic · 31/03/2018 00:30

So it's not that he has memorised the answers.

But rather that he can work the answers out fairly quickly.
By counting in 'number' (e.g. counting in nines). Or actually you say that he's not really 'counting in nines' but rather just 'reciting' the memorised 'nines' numbers.

Hm. When young children learn to count, it often starts as a 'reciting' of numbers, rather than actual counting. Being able to actually count an amount of things often comes later. Nothing wrong with that.

So he is able to recite the numbers in nines, but it seems to me he can use this ability to actually count in nines too, or he wouldn't be able to 'count' 7x9. He is not just 'reciting in nines', but 'counting in nines' by way of 'reciting in nines'.

Sounds to me that he understands 'skip counting' / counting in 'number', but doesn't connect that to multiplication. Maybe all that he needs is for you to make explicit to him that he is actually skip counting, and is great at that; and then to make the link between skip counting and multiplication. So show him an array of 7 rows of 9 things each (for example). Explain how we work out how many there are by doing 7x9. But to actually work it out, we can count down the rows in nines, like he does. Or we can count across the columns, in sevens. Show how it means there are 9 columns of 7 things just as there are 7 rows of 9 things, and that we are counting the 7 things 9 times when we 'skip count'.
Then practice the 'concept' of multiplication with lots of real life 'word problems' as they come up in everyday life, so e.g. we have two cats, they have 4 legs each, so we multiply 2x4 and to work it out we might skip count in 4s. There are 5 children at the party and we want to give them 3 prizes each, so we need 5x3 prizes (and can work that out by skip counting in fives three times, or in threes five times.

Other things to work on would be to get instant recall for the tables, and then perhaps to learn how they fit together/how he can manipulate factors etc. Because although you say he knows them off by heart, what you describe is not that; you describe that he knows how, and is able to, work them out by skip counting. As Sirfred said above, many think that understanding can emerge after the memorising, and that the memorising can aide the understanding. He will need to get instant recall sooner or later anyway, and perhaps having that will help him with the understanding as well; because it is easier to see patterns etc if you don't have to go through the whole process of skip counting first. Especially if he doesn't mind/enjoys working on memorisation, I'd do that right now with him - get him to 'know' that 9x7 is 63 without having to work it out.

Are there any tables he has instant recall for? E.g. 10x table? Or does he skip count them all? If he does have instant recall for some, you could e.g. show him (with real items perhaps) that 9x something is 1x something less than 10x something, so 9x7 is 70-7 (10x7 - 1x7) or that 4x something is the same as 2x something and then 2x again. But if he is still struggling to connect skip counting with multiplication, I would leave that for later.

Norestformrz · 31/03/2018 07:20

"But he really doesnt understand multiplication at all, he can do it because he goes through the rhyme so if I ask him 9x7 he will work him out by counting on his finger 9,18,27,36,45,54,63 but he has no idea what 9x7 actually means." He's finding seven "lots" of nine so he does have a basic understanding of what multiplication is. But I don't understand why he's doing this if he actually knows his tables instead of having instant recall of the fact.

BetterEatCheese · 31/03/2018 07:32

Do something visual such as get a bag of eg craft Pom poms and make sure he understands 'x' means 'groups of' - then show him visually. Or use Lego or toys or anything you have a lot of. My dds maths teacher always stresses understanding e.g. ' the sevenness of seven' and using visual touchy feels aids as much as possible

BikeRunSki · 31/03/2018 07:40

OP - i’m right there with you. DS (9, Y4) was very similar and I couidn’t work out how to help him. We tried drawing, piles of sweets, Lego, wooden cubes ...., frustratingly 6 yo dd got it!

Then very recently - since Feb half term- he got it! The penny dropped and his recall improved hugely ! Then individual sums out of context. I’d recommend perseverance. Good luck.

user789653241 · 31/03/2018 08:28

If he can count on his finger, then I assume he got the basic understanding of X lots of Y is X times Y.
Maybe he needs repeated exposure to real life situations. There are 8 cookies in 1 packet. How many are there is you have 3.
The car have 4 wheels, how many wheels are there if there are 7 cars, etc, etc. There are so many situations you can use in real life. Lego pieces are good visual to see the multiplication, by counting dots.

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