Where do we stand?

[TheOnlyLivingMumInNewCross]

Hi all. Hoping you can all give some advice on what is a troubling situation as I am really upset and feel I've let my daughter down.
So as not to drop feed. We joined after a period of home education in July last year, DD in year 5 and DS in year 4. School is part of an academy, has been seen as inadequate but now doing very well and expected to do well in upcoming OFSTED. We had been at another school but bullying got so bad and the school weren't helpful so after two years we deregged, and home educated between March and July. DCs missed social side and both happy to go back into full time education.
Since joining, there is only one class for her year group, she's made a few friends but hadn't gelled with one girl who is quite a dominant force in class. I had told DD to ignore and make the most of the lovely other people in class but had been told by both teacher and other parents including her foster carer that the child was likely to be off with DD as she is off with most of the class. Being that her situation is clearly difficult, we disregarded any name calling and told DD not to let her previous negative experience cloud her judgement on minor teasing.
We had the child and others at our Halloween party and noted she was very bossy, she took over the music and games, declared it boring and demanded to watch a film. Her FC was with her but did little to intervene. DD and DS said after they didn't enjoy their party. The child told DD her party was "shit" and our house is "fucking bollocks" and she lives in a much nicer house. I told DD to take no notice. I'm so aware she's off to secondary so needs to learn to rise above.
Anyway. Thursday, I was picking them up, and teacher refused to let her walk across the playground so I went to see what was up. DD was meant to go to choir so unusual as she would not usually come out. Was told there was an incident and it was serious. Teacher was very condescending and I wrongly presumed that my DD was the main culprit. Wad told I would need to speak to someone in the morning and statements had been made. I asked for a run down and was told no and I needed to speak to DD.
DD very quiet and upset. She told me she wasnt allowed to go to choir. She explained the girl had been abusive and swore at her classmate and DD had told her to shove off. The child then grabbed her by her collar and pulled it tight, shaking her (she's a big girl compared to mine). Was very concerned that this wasn't explained and I felt the teacher had already decided my DD was at fault. She seems to know the FC very well and is often outside chatting to her and laughing.
Went in and asked one of the three deputy heads if I needed to speak to her but she was busy and said she would call me in 20 minutes. No call came all day.
DH was home early so we drove to the school (I usually take the bus as it's quite far) and we saw DD come out looking upset again so waved her over. She once again was told to stay put so DH walked over whilst I waited at the other door for ds (it's a big old Victorian school with different floors and doors). He was pointed at and told, he said in the manner of a child to wait in the corner. I collected DS and walked over and saw DD was in tears. I held her hand and tried telling her to calm down.
The teacher was shouting at my DH and DD that both the girls had both been denied lunch and break times and had been punished the same. We asked why as regardless of DD telling her to shove off, the other child being violent was surely far worse. At this point the teacher said the girl had told them DD had not said shove by Fuck. DD was hysterical, shouting she hadn't, I asked who else had heard and no one had, yet others had run to get help whilst this child pulled my daughter by her collar. DH said he didn't believe it, it's a big deal in our house swearing, but regardless it didn't excuse the child being violent.
At this point, I wanted to move both DC away from what was becoming a heated situation, as I said I was holding DD's hand so said "come on".

The teacher saw me do this and grabbed DDs arm, yanking her back and shouted "stay where you are now". It was so forceful, DD rolled her ankle, and it yanked me too. DD just screamed and DH said "what on earth do you think you are doing? You can't grab her like that". She looked shocked as well.
They were then ushered indoors but I didn't go in and DH said they were making excuses so he left.
I'm speechless really. DD was doing so well, it took hard work to get her back into a classroom and now she's been upset all evening. To make matters worse, the child was given a good behaviour sticker by the teacher the same day as she was supposedly punished for grabbing DD.
I don't want to go down the police route but surely there are rules on teachers grabbing a child? She wasn't in a dangerous position, she was being walked calmly away from a heated discussion by her Mum!
Apologies for the length but I'm starting to lose all faith in traditional education but am unable to home ed anymore.

So your daughter stood up to a bully and was assaulted and then was treated like she was in the same amount of trouble. The other child seems unstable. I would report the whole incident to the head teacher or higher and I would report the teacher for grabbing your daughter.

I would report actually. Your daughter needs to see the message that she is believed and that no one, another child and especially not a teacher, is allowed to touch her without repercussions.

This is not normal and nothing like that should be happening. Teachers should know not to put hands on a child unless they are a danger to themselves or others.

I would be seriously considering moving schools, even though it's another upheaval simply because they sound totally unable to properly handle the children's behaviour. Even if they back down and apologise over this, would you be confident it wouldn't happen again?

That's my concern and it's so disappointing as we were so pleased at how well she was doing. DS has additional needs due to on going health issues and it was previously treated as a nuisance, but at this school his current teacher had already looked into it all in her own time in the holidays without being prompted. He's very happy there and for the most part DD has been too.
My DH wants to speak to the Police, as he feels it's common assault. I want to see what the school have to say Monday but I can't see DD going in without a fight, she's so upset.
One thing that was said to DH was that the child has a "list" of reports against her, she only joined herself in April.
I've sent an official complaint so think we will have to go through with that but I would expect the teacher to be suspended until it's dealt with?
You expect it from time to time by kids but bot adults.

My immediate reaction to your post, as a Chair of Governors is to be horrified at the way this was handled. The idea that a teacher would grab a child and yank them with a parent on the other end of the child seems to be beyond reasonable behaviour and asks all sorts of safeguarding and child protection questions.
The school need to be taking this very seriously and the first step for you is to make a written complaint about the incident. I think you need to downplay the actual incident between daughter and other pupil. That is a secondary issue compared with the way the incident developed between teacher and you. You need to be stating this is a child protection and safeguarding issue and that the school needs to address the issue immediately or you will be contacting the LADO (the Local Authority Designated Officer ) who would be responsible for ensuring a suitable investigation was carried out.
I think that it is unlikely that the police would believe that any criminal offence had been committed but in terms of child protection that would be a different matter if you can prove what actually happened rather than it be a she said / he said argument

Your child has a right to be safe from both the teacher and the other child. Both need to be dealt with by management as the teacher has now hurt your child and seems unable to be impartial if she is overly friendly with the FC.

Thanks @admission, I think that was my DHs thoughts too, that the incident with the child although upsetting pales in comparison with the behaviour of the teacher afterwards. I'm 5'8 and a size 16 so the fact she yanked her hard enough to yank me too sort of shows how much force she used.
There was other adults around when it happened as it was pick up. But I don't really know anyone, I've kept myself to myself and have started "drop and go" as DD will be off to secondary school and will have to get used to being independent (and she's already a little behind on that due to the previous school and bullying which knocked her confidence and put her back a bit).
I've written all of your advice down so thanks all. Although we're now snowed in so I would imagine the school will be shut again. I will however see if I can speak to them by phone regardless (we're quite a distance as I said and last time we were cut off but the Deputy Head was good about it and had work sent by email).

I am concerned the teacher told you this girl was likely to be 'off' with your DD. The teacher seems to have issues with dealing with this girl. For me that is at the heart of the matter. Obviously the teacher's actions to your DD are very serious but it from what you say it stems from her inability to deal appropriately with this girl.

I've got to say that I've volunteered with children over the years myself, and I have been involved with looked after children in that time so knew there are ways you are expected to deal with incidents and liase with their designated social worker. I'm not sure whether the school has followed that procedure, but looking at what went on with the incident between the girls on Thursday and them limiting the significance of the girl grabbing my daughter and losing her temper so swiftly over being told to shove off would make me think they haven't.
At the start, as they are one year group class, they had two teachers, who followed them up to year 6. DD did say she preferred one more than the other (the one who grabbed her) as she tends to shout a lot and the other was more firm but fair (she's quite an old lady and the entire school loves her, I think she may have been there long enough that she taught some of the parents and we found her approachable), but after Christmas the older one had to take over a year 4 class as their teacher left due to I'll health. DD was sad but seemed to have got the hang of the other teachers way of running the class.
DD has though constantly said about the girl involved being nasty and name calling her but she seemed to be dealing with it well and had a group of mates anyway. One parent called the other girl "highly strung" and told DD to take no notice of her. To find out there is a list of incidents against her makes me feel that the school is clueless as to how to handle her due to her situation but whatever she has experienced shouldn't give her the right to behave so badly to everyone.

Agree completely with Admission. The school (or at least this teacher) is completely mishandling the situation between your daughter and the other girl but that is now a secondary issue. The behaviour of the teacher in grabbing hold of your daughter and yanking her when you were holding her hand and trying to move away is appalling. This is definitely a child protection issue. If the school does not deal with it immediately you need to contact the LADO. It would obviously help if you have witnesses in case the teacher denies what happened or tries to downplay it in some way.

I agree with Admission that I doubt the police would get involved in this. But the school needs to take this very seriously. A teacher behaving like that is totally unacceptable.

Yes I'm definitely going to go along the LADO route than the Police. I've explained to DH regards that and he has stood down on the ringing the non urgent number.
The thing is, I've still not heard from any adult on what their version of the events of Thursday are, considering it was seen as serious enough to warrant statements. As a result, I've now learned from DD that it wasn't her telling the girl to shove off that made her grab her throat, it was actually because the girls best friend (who has apparently been "told off" and warned by the girl not to befriend DD) told her that DD made a bunny ears gesture behind her back as she walked away. However despite this other girl being involved and indirectly causing the whole incident, with words, she wasnt party to the same punishments as the girl and DD who was punished for using words! It's ridiculous. It seems the entire management and teacher are utterly clueless on how to adequately deal with differing levels of incidents, and when they get questioned the teacher loses it and lashes out too!
I can't even move their school as it took long enough to find space at this one. And actually I don't see why I should move them as they're not at fault.

So to update.
There has been school closures in our area, our school isn't one of them but emails and texts were sent as late as 10.45pm last night. Our road as before is an ice rink as are others around it so we weren't able to get them in. School had said in their email if this was the case then to call (sent to all parents not just us).
I called at 8.15am and explained why the children are at home, but I also said that I would like an update this morning as to what, if any, action has or will be taken due to the teachers actions. I asked that they do this via email due to the seriousness of the situation and did also add that if I didn't hear back I would, with regret, have to alert the LADO myself. I also said that DD has been a nightmare of anxiety the likes of which we haven't seen since over a year ago.
DD has barely slept. She keeps saying she feels humiliated. She said there is no way she is going to school ever again. She suffers from stress eczema in a patch on her arm which has reappeared for the first time since leaving her old school.
It's just so upsetting as she was doing so well. And we are back to square one. At least last time it was a child hurting her. We havent talked about it in front of her and have tried to cheer her up but it's soul destroying.
Despite the call this morning and the formal notification of complaint sent on Friday, we haven't received any response at all. It feels so rude!
I think I'm going to wait until 1pm and contact the Local Authority.

The Local Authority is not in control of any discipline or behaviour policies at the school. You will not get any intervention from them. These are matters that are delegated to schools.

Regarding your complaint, there should be a complaints policy on the school's web site and this should detail the timetable for looking into a complaint and a response to you, including an acknowledgment of receipt of the complaint. If it is not there, ask for a hard copy of it. Have you followed the procedure?

You should be aware that, as a looked after child, this child is probably given priority to attend the school. As she has a foster carer, you must realise that her background is probably tumultuous and not conducive to good behaviour. The school should have a plan in place to manage her behaviour, but of course you are not privvy to that. You also do not know what has been discussed between the Head, the teacher and the foster carer in respect of managing the child's behaviour after this event or indeed before.

As others have said, concentrate on the teacher's behaviour towards you.

I think you have been unlucky in that your DD has encountered this child and not been able to keep away from her. Other children have probably run a mile and not engaged. Many schools have disturbed children like this and a survival strategy is now part of many childrens' lives who come into contact with them. It obviously should not have to be like this, but what should schools do with children whose live are in turmoil and whose behaviour is not acceptable, yet are expected to attend the school because they are a priory admission? Not everyone can home educate and escape.

Can you not encourage your DD to have other friends round to tea and foster positive friendships?

There is nothing on the website regards a complaints procedure. I was suggesting contacting the LADO as someone upthread had mentioned them in relation to the teacher, for want of a better way to describe it, manhandling my DD inappropriately.
We are indeed concentrating on the assault by the teacher. As I've said previously we sympathise with the child's previous background and are aware that in school there is always a possibility of your child being hit or worse by a peer. Being yanked hard by your teacher in front of both your parents is clearly not what one expects to happen at any stage and in my view needs to be treated with the severity that the Education act suggests it should.
We have, since January, advised DD to ignore this child as much as possible. We've not been in or complained about the name calling as we saw it as so low level that we wanted DD to deal with it herself by rising above. For the most part, that has happened. The fact that the girl and DD are forced to share a classroom makes it impossible for her to completely keep away from her. We honestly didn't want to make any kind of fuss over it but when you're led to believe that your DD is wholly at fault for an incident, only to hear after she was strangled, I understand they have to use a softly softly approach with this child but no matter what her situation, that action was dangerous and she needs to be dealt with a lot more strongly than my daughter for telling her to shove off. The punishments were completely underwhelming for her violence and over the top for my DD.
I'm not expecting to be told any of this child's past or present. The information that she has a list of accusations and bad behaviour logged against her came from the Deputy Head without us asking for it. There is clearly no procedure in place other than scapegoating others.
However, at no point do I feel I can reasonably send DD in to be taught from now until July, or have DS in her class next year, with a woman who in front of me attacked my child. How would I trust her? She lost control and she should go.

If your dd is in y5 is the other girl 10 yet?

if she is, you could also report her to the police...

I know that she is in foster care and a troubled child - however, maybe a stern telling off from the police (rather than anything going onto her permanent record, not trying to be vindictive and spoil things going forward) would help her to realise that she can't bully and attack and attempt to strangle people. It will also show your dd that you are taking this very seriously.

Agree that the teacher's behaviour is much worse, would definitely be reporting that and making sure there was a paper trail to back it all up and have it on record.

I would ring the school now and ask them to tell you where on their website their complaints procedure is - think it is supposed to be on websites these days although not sure if that's a legal requirement. If not, ask them to email it to you, say you'll hang on the phone while they do it and so you can check that it arrives safely (even if you have to say that you have been having email problems recently - it will force them to do it while you wait, rather than put it to the bottom of their pile of things to do that never get done). If they don't send it while you wait or give you the link to it, then follow up with an email to remind them to send it to you as you said you were unable to do this while we were on the phone. And then again about an hour before hometime, and then an hour after everyone gets in - keep ringing, twice a day until they send it to you if they don't send it out immediately.

Then they will know you are being serious and this could have serious ramifications for them...

Not sure if reporting an incident like this on the OFSTED website is the sort of thing that could trigger an unannounced emergency ofsted inspection - might be worth keeping in mind...

Finally - I'd send a separate simple email in regarding the incident, asking what measures the school is going to take to ensure that your dd is safeguarded from both her teacher and the bully while she is in school, as it is evident that she has not been. Maybe say that until the school is able to reassure you that your dd will be kept safe and away from both these people who have caused her harm, she will not be returning (if this is what you want to happen - I don't know if you want dd to stay at home again, either in the short or long term). That you will be sending in a separate letter regarding the complaints and incidents, but in the immediate here and now, you are concerned that the school are not able to safeguard your dd. And that you are particularly concerned as one of the people that you should be able to rely upon to keep your dd safe is one of the people that not only harmed her physically but mentally as well by not keeping her safe from the bully and punishing her when she had been attacked by the bully. So that any absence that happens as a result of their failure to provide a safe environment for your dd to be in school is due to them - this is likely to hit their absence figures which as we all know they take seriously...

Think there is somebody at the council who is there to keep an eye on schools and absence rates - they may well be a good ally in a time like this if you approach them proactively (and you might already know them if you previously had problems and then HE'd) and say that you feel you have to keep your dd out of school to keep her safe, school are being unhelpful/unco-operative/etc and refusing to safeguard your child, what can they do to help as you want your dd to go back but safely without fear or anxiety.

However, the key is to keep using the word safeguarding (and pointing out their failure in that duty to safeguard) - apparently it's a word that they are legally required to sit up and take notice of - whereas if you were to make the same complaint but just say that the school didn't keep your dd safe or something similar - it doesn't carry the same legal overheads and the school aren't required to look into it and report it in the same way. Bonkers I know as within general speech it means the same thing but worth exploiting if you realise.

The Local Authority is not in control of any discipline or behaviour policies at the school. You will not get any intervention from them. These are matters that are delegated to schools

The first sentence is correct but the rest is not. The teacher's behaviour is a safeguarding issue and is therefore something the LADO should get involved with. The LA won't get involved in the issue between the OP's daughter and the other girl but they should be concerned about a teacher manhandling a pupil.

They have finally emailed and have asked us to come in tomorrow morning.
The email said they are indeed taking the situation with the girl and teacher with the seriousness it should be. They have also said they accept that DD is not going to feel comfortable and they have left it up to us whether she goes in tomorrow or stays with us and they will want to talk to her either way anyway.
To give them their due, I wasn't expecting that type of reply. It had made me relax a little that they know the situation is bad. I let them know we will attend and that I welcome that they acknowledge that DD will have been affected by this too.
Just to answer someone upthread, DD joined at the end of year 5 but is now in Year 6. That's why we've tried to limit our involvement with what we felt was a bit of teasing as to put it mildly and not sound horrid, we want her to gain independence and a backbone as obviously secondary school is near and the last thing she will want is Mummy running in! I won't be helping her if I did (my own was " that" mum and I got grief for it) and until now she's been doing so well at standing on her own two feet and sticking up for herself and it has been marvellous. I'm hoping by keeping this to a minimum of stress for her we can get her back where she was swiftly.

I was talking about the Behaviour and Discipline policy for the children at the school. Not the teacher! I am aware that is a different procedure.

We had our meeting this morning and I have to say I was very impressed with the Deputy heads response. She was the first to mention the LADO and that there was no question of not getting in contact with them. The teacher has been suspended pending an investigation and has admitted that an incident occurred. We've also been told the punishment given to my DD and the girl is not what is in the schools handbook. At most, DD should have lost a break, but she said even that she probably wouldn't have done as she knows that DD is incredibly caring of people (especially those with SEN due to her brother. The lad she was sticking up for has a range of issues) so she wasnt acting maliciously. She said she didn't believe DD used the f word, she said she would be far more convinced of DD using an Americanism instead!
She was concerned that the teacher hadn't reported concerns before or told her about the incident. She also hadn't informed the KS2 leader either.
The girl involved will be dealt with as she feels that she hadn't been sufficiently dealt with and she will also be speaking to the Looked After Children team to alert them.
She gave us the option of at this stage the LADO and the school investigating with or without the Police- after the meeting we were happy to forego Police as they would have to interview DD and I think we all agreed that would not be beneficial to her at all, but the option is there.
She then came with us and spoke to DD and was fantastic with her, she told DD to come back when she is ready but that she was sorry they had let her down so badly and that her door is always open. She told her she is such a clever girl that they don't want to lose her, and DD is going back tomorrow.
It went far better than I expected. The teacher now has lots of questions to answer, the Deputy actually voiced that someone with her experience should have known better and she is gutted that she has behaved so badly as she has an exemplary record. But she also said as a mum herself she would feel exactly as we do and DD is of the utmost importance.
Thanks for the advice above. Hopefully it can all be resolved

Well done. I think the school have acted appropriately and I hope your DD will now go back.

It all seems a bit sad for the teacher who appears to be at the end of her tether. Expect a long period of sickness.

They obviously need to review the plan for the looked after child and her needs are probably not being met either. I hope she can be given the guidance and support she needs for a stable future. I’m sure you do too!

That's great that the school are taking it so seriously.

Final update and a good one.
The school and LADO acted very swiftly and kept us informed throughout. And, to her credit, the teacher admitted it happened exactly the way we said and offered to resign if we wanted her to. This lady isn't the sort you'd imagine upset but she said she was gutted in herself and was in bits according to the Deputy Head.
DD went back to school Wednesday to her own protection committee of girls from her year. She's not had many mates since joining but the class have no idea why the teacher wasn't in so they all think DD nearly left due to the girl who strangled her. I did voice to school this wasn't good either but the Deputy Head said she will keep an eye on it but for now, a bit of blanking by girls may teach her a lesson. To her credit DD told one of the girls to include the otger in their class tag game but she told them all to get lost
It was left up to us what happened next, we had to have respect for the teacher admitting fault when she could've denied it and gone along with a lengthy but paid investigation and suspension. DD also said she was fine with her as she had been honest.
The teacher came in for five minutes yesterday to give them a Creme Egg each. I asked DD if that was ok, and she said it was and she gave her a hug!
All's well that ends well and whilst DD and the other girl will never be mates I hope the girls don't continue to exclude her. We have a brief meeting with the teacher after the holidays but will draw a line under it.